Inconsistent shoulder bump driving me crazy….help?

[Alex Wheeler]

Prove it to yourself. Tighten your fl die to touch the shell holder. lube a case and run it into the die. Now look at the gap between the die and shell holder. All presses flex, each piece of brass is different. If you lube one piece more than another, even if one is shiney and one is dull. All those things change the friction in the die and effect the amount the press flexes. Now if you set up the die so it hits the shell holder HARD, it overcomes that flex. You will most likely be over sizing at that point. Thats why you buy the redding comp. holders. Also, work the handle quickly. If you push the case into the die slow it increases friction.

 

[jlow]

Gotcha - Not a problem, we are all here to learn and considering the range of equipment we use, there is bound to be misunderstandings but I appreciate your input regardless. When I see something that surprises me, it usually good news and a chance to learn, this is no different.

Hopkins – thanks! That is exactly what I was trying to figure out about the Redding competition shell holders – will get some.

Zhastmalibu – I know I would be way oversized if I turn the die down so that it touches the shell holder because the gap is significant. I have no problem believing that having the thicker shell holder will help for exactly the reason you mentioned.

 

[jo191145]

Two real possibilities I'm seeing here.

Inconsistent annealing can play a huge factor in bump.
Very few if anyone may agree but if brass is of a different hardness before annealing you'll still have different hardnesses after annealing if you use exact dwell time in the heat. I fully realize this makes no scientific sense

The other is a weak press.
The only prees I use is a Lee Classic Cast Iron. Theres none of this cam over stuff folks discuss here.
Its a dead stop and stiffer than petrified wood, errr almost.
If I fire a proof load that causes extreme hard bolt lift I'll usually slip an .002" shim between shellholder and brass just to knock the shoulder back to normal.
None of my FL dies touch the shellholders. With normal stout loads variations are within .001" which is the limit of error using standard comparators.

FWIW I never wax the shoulders either. They're not going to stick so why bother. Just a light coat under the shoulders is sufficient if the die is waxed already.

 

[jlow]

Wayne - First of all, nothing I have said should indicate that I think the sizing die is my only problem, in fact my post says exactly the opposite. My own experience in trouble shooting is that when something goes wrong, there is usually more than one problem and this is likely the case here. However, the way I have found work best for me is to prioritize the potential problems and address them one at a time, this is basically what I am trying to do here.

As to whether the Redding Competition shell holders will make a difference, zfastmalibu’s explaination makes sense to me but I think if you think it makes no sense, I would love to hear a debate on this issue that is done in a gentlemanly manner – please! I have worked as the moderator of a bulletin board for many years and I understand that there are some bad feelings on this board, but IMHO, nothing constructive happens when people start beating on each other.

The press I use is a Lee Classic Cast Breech Lock Single Stage.

Jo191145 – I buy into the inconsistent annealing theory. No problem with no lubing the shoulders.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Bozo699, I believe you are missing my point. You don't need need the competion shell holders to make headspace adjustments. Anyone can screw a die in or out. You need them so you can get your desired shoulder set back and maintain a good hard contact between the die and shell holder. With a custom die and small cases like a ppc or br the benefit is less, that set up requires very little force from a press. Bigger cases with factory dies will show more benifit. I check my sized dasher brass, they used to vary plus or minus a thou. They are all the same since I started using this setup on my forster coax. I learned about this from an article M.L. McPherson wrote in Precision shooting a few months back, it ain't my idea.

 

[jlow]

Zfastmalibu – thanks for your clarification – much appreciated.

In addition, I did write in to Redding yesterday to see what they would say. I attached here an e-mail I got from them explaining why it is useful to use the Redding competition shell holders in terms of getting a consistent headspace:

Hi Joseph

Thank you for using Redding Reloading Equipment. If your Full Length Sizing Die is adjusted to just make contact with the shell holder, and you run a case up into the die. You will see a gap between the bottom of the die and the top of the shellholder. What happens is when the case pushes up on inside of the die and it removes the play between the threads of the die and the threads of the press. There is also some flex in the press itself, even Redding Ultramag Press will flex. Each piece of brass will have a different amount of resistance to resizing. So this gap will vary, which gives you a variation in shoulder setback.

Redding's Competition Shellholders allow you to adjust your die for a cam-over (screw the die down another 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn) and eliminate this gap. You then adjust the shoulder set back by using the Competition Shellholders. You start with the +.010 and work back toward the +.002 shellholder until you achieve the shoulder set back you want or your bolt handle will close freely. You may still see some variation due to difference in spring back of each piece of brass.

I hope this helps.

Regards
Chris Fox
Customer Service

Redding Reloading Equipment

 

[bozo699]

Bozo699, I believe you are missing my point. You don't need need the competion shell holders to make headspace adjustments. Anyone can screw a die in or out. You need them so you can get your desired shoulder set back and maintain a good hard contact between the die and shell holder. With a custom die and small cases like a ppc or br the benefit is less, that set up requires very little force from a press. Bigger cases with factory dies will show more benifit. I check my sized dasher brass, they used to vary plus or minus a thou. They are all the same since I started using this setup on my forster coax. I learned about this from an article M.L. McPherson wrote in Precision shooting a few months back, it ain't my idea.

zfastmalibu,
I understood what you were saying but thank you for clarifying anyway I am sure this is the best way for sure


jlow,
I wasn't trying to argue, just trying to help you, I have had less then a tou. of variation for years using my process I explained to you but then again my calipers and mics are probably off, I am sorry you took it as argumentative I will remove the post, I wish you the best.
Wayne.

 

[jlow]

Wayne,

I have absolutely no problem with debate, in fact I think properly done, debate is the essence of how a group of people with diversified knowledge can come up with answers that none of them alone is capable of coming up with. As a moderator, I have seen this many times and I am always amazed as to what is possible when the conditions are optimal.

What I was suggesting is to not come across too strongly in terms of opinion and being willing to debate the issue without injecting language which gets people to lose their objectivity – that is always counter productive.

As usual, your opinions and advice is always welcomed.

 

[gotcha]

Now, THIS is an interesting answer! Does it fly in the face of the original die instruction of backing the die out a 1/4 turn from the S/H? Or does it agree w/ those of us that look for intimate contact to maintain close H/S tolerances........... I've tried adjusting H/S by using a feeler gauge between S/H & Die. Good co-ax but poor H/S consistency....... I can only relate to my personal experience.... Jlow, I've heard people say that the breech lock has a bit of play in the breech lock mechanism. Another factor to look at? .......... My press "cams over". I wonder how die would be properly set for presses not having this feature?

 

[gotcha]

OOPS! .... Y'all beat me to the punch. Was refering to Reddings answer.

 

[jlow]

I am no expert on this but I will give you my take. I think they are both correct.

The reason is for the die which is normally used with a regular shell holder, if you screw it down tight on the shell holder, your shoulders are going to be bumped down way too much, thus start the bump with the die turned ¼ turn off the S/H and work down from there. Chances are like me, you are going to reach the correct headspace long before you get down to the S/H.

Now, if you start with the Redding Competition S/H which is going to be thicker than your run of the mill shell holder, you are going to find one which allows you to screw it down that 1/8 to ¼ turn to eliminate the gap. Remember this is the thicker shell holder and you can do this and still get the correct headspace.

I am sure that the breech lock press has more play than a regular screw down press. Mechanically speaking, the more linkage you add to a process, the more play, you cannot avoid this. The real question is the amount and whether it is significant? Also don’t forget that the purpose of the competition shell holder is to allow you to compress that play out . You won’t know until you try it. I have two sets of the puppies on order!

Someone else would have you answer you question as it relates to “cams over” press.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Its hard to get a tone of voice over the internet. I didn't think this was argumentative, just talk. There are many ways to skin a cat and I never said this was the best, just a way. I get the sarcasm Mr. Wayne .

 

[jlow]

I really liked the explanation given by the Redding tech – notice he says “Each piece of brass will have a different amount of resistance to resizing. So this gap will vary, which gives you a variation in shoulder setback.”

This could be due to a difference in the softness of the brass but I don’t think so since most of the resistance is due to the body of the case and that is not an area we anneal. Most likely it is a difference in the diameter/expansion of the brass due to different degree of expansion it experienced i.e. how hot the previous load was. This makes complete sense as I used this brass for working up the load and as you would expect, the power weight range from very low to almost max weight. This could also in fact account for why some people have more problem than others. If your brass was always used to fire a fixed weight of powder, you will likely see less of a variation…. So the details matters here.

You can also see that he does not dismiss the effect of annealing as he states in the end “you may still see some variation due to difference in spring back of each piece of brass”

 

[jo191145]

JMO
I think setting the shoulders back requires more force than sizing the body.
Think of the angles involved. The fact the shoulders move forward with ease as the body is constricted. Once the shoulders make contact you've reached the point in the process where theres no room left for the brass to go. It must therefor expand in length through the neck of the die.

I always feel the shoulders bump as a slight increase in resistance. Arguements could easily be made its a cumulative effect I suppose. But think of the transformation of brass being required.

Beyond that point I think you lucked out and got one of the better techs at Redding ;D

 

[jo191145]

Quess I should add,,,,
I routinely do load workup. Its what I do for fun.
During that work up I routinely run some very hot loads.
Never have much problem setting them back with most of my die setups.
I can definately feel the difference during sizing but they come out the same (most of the time)
Recently was toying with faster than normal powders in the 30BR and went way over sanity levels. These required a little extra shimming.
After getting them resized I chucked em anyway.

Is it the press? Don't know.

 

[jlow]

Again, I am no expert but what I can say from personal experience is when I have FLR my brass in the past, I have frequently felt a huge range of difference in the amount of force needed on different pieces of brass from the same batch from almost no effort to a high degree of effort (fired with different amounts of powder). You can feel this long before you reach the neck bumping area which is why considering the rationale given by the tech, I am pretty convinced that this is my main problem.

Now variation in annealing will still contribute, but the question here is how much. The way I deal with trouble shooting is to go for the low hanging fruits first and these would be the ones which are easiest to do (no lube on the shoulders), cost the least, and also the ones which show the greatest rationale for success. When those don’t work, I ratchet it up to the next stage – in this case that would mean a Bench-Source or Giraud…

 

[gotcha]

Well, at any rate, it was an interesting discussion. Excellent input from all involved. I know I've picked up a few pointers. Thanks

 

[bozo699]

Its hard to get a tone of voice over the internet. I didn't think this was argumentative, just talk. There are many ways to skin a cat and I never said this was the best, just a way. I get the sarcasm Mr. Wayne .

No sir, no sarcasm at all, I just know from years of trial and error what works and what doesn't, I know your way works I have used it, the problem is I want my bump exact and you can't always achieve exact because of the sizes they give you. I can achieve .001 or under with my time and proven methods. I was trying to help jlow, I know how his scientific mind works and I thought I could show him how he could achieve little to no variance in his shoulder bump without changing any of his equipment or not much anyway. He thought I was being argumentative or was getting ready to be so I simply removed my post and apologized to the both of you. Not sarcasm just a apology!
Wayne.

P.S best of luck in all your shoulder bumping,....Boyd Allen,...as usual you were right,... I should have listened to you!!! when we discussed this on the phone :

 

[243winxb]

Cam-Over

Cam Over- Your Lee press may not. Midwayusa -

The powerful steel compound linkage with travel stop helps to prevent "cam-over".

Redding & RCBS both talk about cam over. Maybe this is what makes the difference when the shell holder contacts the die? But you can not get "cam-over" if the two are not making contact on the Redding or RCBS press.

Photo shows a spacer so press cams over during bullet seating. Could it work when FL sizing?

 

[jlow]

Gotcha – well that makes both of us and I am very thankful for all the inputs. I have learned a lot here in the few pages which is what I was hoping for when I first asked the question.

Wayne - If you look at what is included in the Redding Competition Shellholder Set, the holders are 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10 thousands thicker than your normal holders. Now certainly you don’t get the in between thickness i.e. 1, 3, 5, 7, and 9 thousands, but if I understand correctly as to how these are used, you do not need them.

The reason is the fine tuning of the shoulder bump is not done by using the exact right thickness shell holder but only by adjusting how far down the die is seated. The purpose of the thicker shell holder is to allow you to get that tight seating so that the wiggle caused by the thread of the die and the press is taken out. You do this by choosing one that not only allows the die to touch the shellholder but which allows you to press hard on it. Once you reach that point, metal being what it is will not compress further (at least not with the pressure you can achieve with your press) and the distance between the bottom of the shellholder where the head of your case sits and the shoulder area on the die will become constant, thus giving you a consistent shoulder bump.

Now this could still be affected later if you have an inconsistent annealing of the shoulder since the spring back will be different, but it is a stepwise process and you got to get both consistent bump and the proper annealing i.e. it will not help you to have perfectly annealed brass if you cannot bump consistently.

Now certainly other factors such as not getting lube on the shoulder area and a better press might help but again, you got to get the bump right and I am attacking the problem one step at a time.

This is how I look at the process. If you think I am missing something or that it can be improved upon, I would very much like to know .