IMR4064 kernel size/weight

[Ned Ludd]

Can anyone provide an accurate kernel weight for IMR4064? Or possibly info on how the relative size of the kernels relate to those of powders within a similar burn rate range, such as Varget or H4895?

Thanks!

 

[Twoboxer]

Can't help with the weight, but the data base here: http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/search.php has the measured size ranges for various batches of IMR-4064. The probably have similar data for other powders you want to compare. Just enter the Product Name (eg N140, Varget, IMR-4064) and click search. It's not an intelligent search, so (eg) N-140 won't work, N140 will.

 

[Kurz]

This book is still in publication and available through Wolfe Publishing:

Wolfe Publishing
Propellant Profiles 6th Edition

https://www.wolfeoutdoorsports.com/propellant-profiles-6th-edition/

I have a copy but it's packed away for the next year or so...

This is well written, easily understood and a valuable reference for information other than this inquiry.

Regards.

 

[243winxb]

relative size of the kernels relate

http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature Articles/McCord_gunpowder/

another important characteristic is its morphology. Shape and size have a profound effect on the burning rate and power generation of a powder (Meyer 1987). Common particle shapes of smokeless propellants include balls, discs, perforated discs, tubes, perforated tubes, and aggregates (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms 1994; Selavka et al. 1989). A few common types of smokeless powder morphologies can be seen in Figure 1 (Bender 1998

Old, may not apply to some of the newer powder?

If a compressed powder has its shape changed by crushing, does a chronograph show a change in velocity??

 

[Twoboxer]

. . .

If a compressed powder has its shape changed by crushing, does a chronograph show a change in velocity??

Probably, since the powder's exposed surface area has changed.

 

[Bart B.]

If a compressed powder has its shape changed by crushing, does a chronograph show a change in velocity??

Yes. Because they can be cracked or broken apart.

More surface area to start burning when primer fires.

Pressure curve rises faster and usually to higher levels

 

[HTSmith]

The IMR 4064 "logs" are a lot longer than Varget. I dragged some 4064 out a couple of weeks ago when I was trying to work up a decent load for a friend's 30/06. I couldn't get the velocity I was after with my lot of Varget. The 4064 did the trick just like I remembered. The problem was that it dang near impossible to throw out of my Redding measure, so I found my old Lee powder dippers. They worked great! Makes me wonder why I've bought all this modern "stuff"

 

[Ned Ludd]

Thanks to all that replied. I was basically trying to figure out whether IMR4064 might work in a .223 with heavy projectiles. Varget is another option, but the kernels are a bit larger (heavier) than optimal for such a small case. It seems as though somewhere around Varget is a kind of cutoff where the kernels get much smaller in faster powders, but get even larger in similar to slower-burning powders. I routinely determine an average weight per kernel for all the powders I use, but have never tried 4064.

 

[243winxb]

I loaded 4064 in 223 69 gr. I dont like compressed loads. A drop tube may help.

Check the Hodgdon website. Loads have a "C" if compressed.

 

[Kurz]

I used IMR-3031 in a .17 Mach IV case a while back. Yes, it was a little tedious getting it into the case but the performance was excellent!

IMR-4064 is just a tad too slow for the heavy bullets in the .223 Rem., at least with the 75 grain I tried.

I use Re-10x and AR Comp along with IMR-8208 XBR.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Slower burn rate is the exact reason I'm interested in trying 4064. With H4895 and 90 VLDs, somewhere around 2850 fps is a very nice sweet spot for a 30" barrel. The problem is that a number of people using that load (or similar) in F-TR in the last couple years have been having issues with jacket failure. One approach to help minimize this problem is to use a powder that will NOT give quite as much velocity as H4895 in an optimized load, thereby removing a little stress on the jacket. The key will be to find a powder that gives slightly less velocity in an optimized load, but not so much less that you're giving up too much performance. My estimate is that a powder that would give a velocity of somewhere around 2800 to 2820 fps from a 30" barrel ought to be just about perfect.

Varget is one choice that will typically give velocities that are about 20-25 fps less than H4895 in a tuned load. However, a kernel of Varget is almost half again the weight and size of a kernel of H4895, which may not be optimal for maintaining low ES/SD in the small .223 Rem case. I'm looking for additional choices, and 4064 falls within a reasonable burn rate range, and is also known to pretty reasonable resistance to temperature-dependent velocity variance. However, if the kernels are even larger/heavier than Varget (as I suspect they are), 4064 may not be the best choice. IMR4166 would probably also fit the bill in terms of its other properties, but the kernels are substantially larger than even those of Varget. Varget will certainly work, and I have plenty of it. I'm just checking whether there might be a few other options that are worth looking into.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Thanks to all that replied. I was basically trying to figure out whether IMR4064 might work in a .223 with heavy projectiles. Varget is another option, but the kernels are a bit larger (heavier) than optimal for such a small case. It seems as though somewhere around Varget is a kind of cutoff where the kernels get much smaller in faster powders, but get even larger in similar to slower-burning powders. I routinely determine an average weight per kernel for all the powders I use, but have never tried 4064.

It's almost grain for grain with Varget but I've seen 4064 bring a lot of guns to life over Varget. You have to decide if it's better or worse in your gun, and if it's worth the extra trouble metering.

 

[Twoboxer]

I weighed 10 "random" kernels of my 8lb jug of IMR-4064 on an A&D FX120i. They weighed 0.20 gr.

A second group of 10 kernels also weighed 0.20 gr

The 20 grains together weighed 0.42 gr.

When selecting the "random" kernels, I tweezered kernels that looked representative from a much larger spread that included a small amount of visibly shorter or slightly deformed kernels.

 

[243winxb]

.0745 IMR4064
.0731 H-VARGET

Lee Precision -

VOLUME MEASURE DENSITY (VMD).. VMD is the volume of one grain of gunpowder in cubic centimeters. To find the volume of a powder charge, multiply the grains of powder by the VMD

having issues with jacket failure.

Berger did a test a while back. 2008 http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?49336-Berger-bullet-failure-test

Failures have several causes. The most common is produced by the core melting. The core melts because it gets too hot. The core gets too hot because of the FRICTION between the rifling and bearing surface. This has been proven to be the hottest part of the bullet as it moves through the barrel. This area has been shown in high speed, infared images reaching tempuratures at the melting point of lead. Other causes for failure are excessive RPM. Since most shooters use factory (bullet or barrel) recommended twist rates failures due to excessive twist rates are rare (but do happen). Rarer still is a failure caused by extreme barrel issues (damaged bore) extremely poor loading practices (damaged bullet) or extremely poor cleaning practices (which further increases friction). Another extremely rare cause is related to bullet production issues. Bullet construction that is poor enough to result in bullet failure (and where bullet failure would not have occurred for any other reason) can theoretically occur in situations where standard QA and production procedures are ignored almost completely. I am sure that this is possible but is as unlikely as I can imagine (from all bullet makers). These reasons for failure are true for all bullets. Bullets from every maker can experience failure under the right (or wrong) conditions. Recently, Sierra has made public that they are discontinuing the production of 6mm 117 gr DTAC due to repeated failures. I do not mean to pick on Sierra but this is a recent example. ALL BULLET MAKERS HAVE BULLETS THAT FAIL AND MOST FAILURES ARE CAUSED BY THE MELTING OF THE CORE.

Yes old 2008 , but just in case someone missed it.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Thanks for the updates, fellas, they are helpful. For my intended purpose, 4064 is probably worth a try as long as the kernels aren't dramatically larger (heavier) than those of Varget, which is what the latest posts seem to indicate. Velocity with 4064 may not have quite resistance to changing temperature as with Varget, but by most accounts it's still pretty good. I think I'll pick some up and give it a try. I can always use it in .308 loads if it doesn't do what I want in the .223 Rem loads with 90s. Thanks again for the responses.

 

[JBT47]

Watching this. I think I would also like to try 4064 in my .223 with the 90’s.

 

[shoot4fun]

I've shot several thousand rounds of 223 at targets to 1,000 yards. My experimenting with the "right" powder took me thru 8208XBR, 2000-MR, RL15, and AA2520. No matter what I've tried I always came back to Varget behind the 80 grain VLD. It is slightly compressed but I am able to load the bullets out farther due to my throat length. I did, once completely settled on my current recipe, do a primer test using FGMM, CCI 400 and 450 primers. SD fell significantly, for me at least, when I went to the CCI400.
The current 26" 7.7T Krieger produces 2980 FPS and bullets stay together. I have never experienced a bullet blowup at this velocity. I've managed some five-shot groups at 600 yards that were sub 1/2MOA and, if conditions permit, have no trouble keeping five inside 1 MOA at 1,000.
I have a 6.5T Krieger on the way and intend to build another .223 26" as to, hopefully, get more stabilities at the 1,000 yard line with the same (or as close as possible) load. I do think, as my load is over any published data, I will need to back down a bit to keep away from a danger zone.
Also, my bolts are bushed for small FP.

 

[Doug Beach]

Average 4064 kernel:
.031” diameter
.083” length

 

[Doug Beach]

 

[1lnbrdg]

Will IMR-4064 run thru the Auto-trickler?