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IMR4064 - Did mine go bad?

LHSmith said:
See thread of 1/25/14 "Can this powder be salvaged?", Reply #13 ....a response from Alliant Powder.
The recommendation is to spread it on the lawn or garden......NOT dump it into the swimming pool which is analogous to a posters water glass analogy.

It amazes me how many things are pssed one from one person to the next, without logical thought - have you ever actually tried to fertilize a plant with smokeless powder - I have, and it doesn't work - have you ever tried to dissolve smokeless powder in water, I have and it doesn't dissolve.


Heat cycling = temperature swings through a period of time.
Excerpt from all the free powder manuals on smokeless powder:
Consideration for storage
Smokeless powder is intended to function by burning, so it must be protected against accidental exposure to flame, sparks, or HIGH TEMPERATURES.
For these reasons, it is desirable that the storage enclosures be made of INSULATING materials to protect the powder from EXTERNAL HEAT SOURCES.

And, with that wonderful explanation, how do you explain how ammunition functions when it goes through wide temperature swings - I buy it in the summer, and take it out in the winter, and shoot one or two rounds, and the rest sits in my garage at 20 degrees, and throughout the summer at 110 degrees, and back to the winter, and this happens many years, and the ammunition is fine, does not break down, the powder does not decompose... and the reason is???

Your statements fly in the face of logic.

If you read the factory warnings on Jeeps, you would never drive them in the dirt either.

My 4WD has a warning on the sunshade that tells me to never do any of the things it was sold for.
 
Catshooter, it seems that your mind is closed and no one should try to present any facts to you. Plastic is NOT the only substance that will not dissolve in water. Nitrocellulose is not a plastic. It does contain cellulose , which will not dissolve. If you want to ignore the advise from the powder companies...then go ahead. DETERIORATED POWDER SHOULD NOT BE USED FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN AS A FERTILIZER FOR ONE"S PETUNIAS. Good shooting...James
 
JDMock said:
Catshooter, it seems that your mind is closed and no one should try to present any facts to you. Plastic is NOT the only substance that will not dissolve in water. Nitrocellulose is not a plastic. It does contain cellulose , which will not dissolve. If you want to ignore the advise from the powder companies...then go ahead. DETERIORATED POWDER SHOULD NOT BE USED FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN AS A FERTILIZER FOR ONE"S PETUNIAS. Good shooting...James

James... you obviously did not take (or slept through) chemistry. I took (aka bleed through) two years of college chemistry... It IS a plastic - it does not dissolve in water.

Hexa-Nitrocellulose does NOT contain cellulose - once nitrated, the cellulose is no longer there, it is a new compound, with a completely different atomic structure.

Ammonium nitrate is not ammonia any more - it does not contain ammonia.

Trinitrotoluene (TNT) is not toluene anymore - it does not contain toluene.

Nitro glycerin is not glycerin anymore - it does not contain glycerin.

Get a chemistry book and read up on it.
 
Just FYI, but Alliant's website suggests that the way to dispose of powder that you do not want is to burn it.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/getting_started/safety/storage_handling.aspx

The best way to dispose of deteriorated smokeless powder is to burn it out in the open at an isolated location in small shallow piles (not over 1" deep). The quantity burned in any one pile should never exceed one pound. Use an ignition train of slow burning combustible material so that the person may retreat to a safe distance before powder is ignited.

-- Scott
 
I have examined rusty parts in a lab for years. When parts rust and rust flakes off there are particles of many sizes and shapes. Why is this red stuff all particles of the same exact microscopic size and color. How does it get distributed evenly through out the container and not just where the metal contacts the powder. Is it attracted to a magnet by static? Many sources state that a red dust forms when the powder deteriorates.
 
Webster said:
I have examined rusty parts in a lab for years. When parts rust and rust flakes off there are particles of many sizes and shapes. Why is this red stuff all particles of the same exact microscopic size and color. How does it get distributed evenly through out the container and not just where the metal contacts the powder. Is it attracted to a magnet by static? Many sources state that a red dust forms when the powder deteriorates.

Magnets do not attract by static... and if there were static from other sources, the powder would also be attracted - in the winter, the powder in my measure dances to the walls and stays there. Rust is a conductor and is not attracted by static.
 
Catshooter, I realize that it does not contain "raw" cellulose, but it is NOT a plastic. Sometimes Nitrocellulose is made into fibers and the fibers are used to make certain materials..like rayon, but the nitrocellulose is a cellulose from wood or cotton and it is reacted with a nitrate such as Nitric acid to form the COMPOUND nitrocellulose. Because of its nitrogen component it makes a viable fertilizer. When it starts to break down the acid will rust iron objects but it also deteriorates into a red powder. I have seen this red powder in cardboard containers which had the deteriorated GI 322. It is subject to spontaneous combustion. Since you know everything already, go ahead and shoot it in your expensive barrel. You should be very careful however when advising others to do so. The powder companies give good advice when it comes to deteriorated powders. Good shooting...James
 
Agree, To many chemist. Nitrocellulose into rayon, NO. The nitrogen in nitrocellulose doesn't fertilize the lawn. The nitrogen is chemically bound to other elements. You cannot turn water into hydrogen and oxygen by throwing it out on your lawn. If it happened we would never need natural gas or gasoline.
 
Webster, the nitrogen in ammonium nitrate is also bonded to hydrogen and oxygen atoms...but that does not mean that it can't be used as fertilizer. What has that got to do with the hydrogen and oxygen in water.... why not use the analogy of salt ....... made of an alkali metal (sodium) and a poisonous gas (chlorine). Also, you are wrong about using nitrocellulose to make fibers which can be made into other materials. Just because plastic materials can be made from it does not make it a plastic. Plastics are much more complicated materials than is nitrocellulose. I am through with this discussion since it has turned into a pi$$ing contest and has little to do with the original question about using deteriorated powder. Good shooting...James
 
JDMock said:
Catshooter, I realize that it does not contain "raw" cellulose, but it is NOT a plastic. Sometimes Nitrocellulose is made into fibers and the fibers are used to make certain materials..like rayon, but the nitrocellulose is a cellulose from wood or cotton and it is reacted with a nitrate such as Nitric acid to form the COMPOUND nitrocellulose. James.

James, you could not be more wrong.


plas·tic
[plas-tik] Show IPA
noun
1.
Often, plastics. any of a group of synthetic or natural organic materials that may be shaped when soft and then hardened, including many types of resins, resinoids, polymers, cellulose derivatives, casein materials, and proteins: used in place of other materials, as glass, wood, and metals, in construction and decoration, for making many articles, as coatings, and, drawn into filaments, for weaving. They are often known by trademark names, as Bakelite, Vinylite, or Lucite.

---

A plastic material is any of a wide range of synthetic or semi-synthetic organic solids that are moldable. Plastics are typically organic polymers of high molecular mass, but they often contain other substances. They are usually synthetic, most commonly derived from petrochemicals, but many are partially natural.[

---

The composition, structure, and properties of plastics

Many of the chemical names of the polymers employed as plastics have become familiar to consumers, although some are better known by their abbreviations or trade names. Thus, polyethylene terephthalate and polyvinyl chloride are commonly referred to as PET and PVC, while foamed polystyrene and polymethyl methacrylate are known by their trademarked names, Styrofoam and Plexiglas (or Perspex).

Industrial fabricators of plastic products tend to think of plastics as either “commodity” resins or “specialty” resins. (The term resin dates from the early years of the plastics industry; it originally referred to naturally occurring amorphous solids such as shellac and rosin.) Commodity resins are plastics that are produced at high volume and low cost for the most common disposable items and durable goods. They are represented chiefly by polyethylene, polypropylene, polyvinyl chloride, and polystyrene. Specialty resins are plastics whose properties are tailored to specific applications and that are produced at low volume and higher cost. Among this group are the so-called engineering plastics, or engineering resins, which are plastics that can compete with die-cast metals in plumbing, hardware, and automotive applications. Important engineering plastics, less familiar to consumers than the commodity plastics listed above, are polyacetal, polyamide (particularly those known by the trade name nylon), polytetrafluoroethylene (trademark Teflon), polycarbonate, polyphenylene sulfide, epoxy, and polyetheretherketone. Another member of the specialty resins is thermoplastic elastomers, polymers that have the elastic properties of rubber yet can be molded repeatedly upon heating. Thermoplastic elastomers are described in the article elastomer.

Plastics also can be divided into two distinct categories on the basis of their chemical composition. One category is plastics that are made up of polymers having only aliphatic (linear) carbon atoms in their backbone chains. All the commodity plastics listed above fall into this category. The structure of polypropylene can serve as an example; here attached to every other carbon atom is a pendant methyl group (CH3):

The other category of plastics is made up of heterochain polymers. These compounds contain atoms such as oxygen, nitrogen, or sulfur in their backbone chains, in addition to carbon. Most of the engineering plastics listed above are composed of heterochain polymers. An example would be polycarbonate, whose molecules contain two aromatic (benzene) rings:

The distinction between carbon-chain and heterochain polymers is reflected in the table, in which selected properties and applications of the most important carbon-chain and heterochain plastics are shown and from which links are provided directly to entries that describe these materials in greater detail. It is important to note that for each polymer type listed in the table there can be many subtypes, since any of a dozen industrial producers of any polymer can offer 20 or 30 different variations for use in specific applications. For this reason the properties indicated in the table must be taken as approximations.
 
From accuratepowder.com:
Recommended storage conditions - 70' F, 50% RH
Avoid exposure to sunlight and artificial UV light.
Store in a COOL DRY place.
Do not keep old or salvaged powders. Check for deterioration regularly. Destroy deteriorated powders immediately.

From SAAMI.org:
Check to make certain that smokeless powder is not exposed to EXTREME HEAT as this may cause deterioration.
 
Bruce Hodgdon told me years ago that if it clumps together, get rid of it. It's going bad. As someone on this topis said, it isn't worth the risk. There is plenty of it out there
 
From the MSDS on accuratepowder.com:
"This product may react with acids, oxidizizing agents, alkalines or amines (organic and inorganic)......"
I believe you will find most soils contain some of the above. No one is claiming it is a fast acting fertilizer.
For me, it is a safer, easier way to dispose of unwanted powder......provided it is spread thinly.
 
LHSmith said:
From the MSDS on accuratepowder.com:
"This product may react with acids, oxidizizing agents, alkalines or amines (organic and inorganic)......"
I believe you will find most soils contain some of the above. No one is claiming it is a fast acting fertilizer.
For me, it is a safer, easier way to dispose of unwanted powder......provided it is spread thinly.

Where the hell do you live??? I think your flower bed is the local toxic waste dump... Gag.

My yard has none of these, and you are taking the MSDS out of context.
 
Well, since my soil is acidic, I add lime ( an alkaline) to bring up the Ph.
Then there is the mulch bed which I throw in kitchen garbage, grass clippings, saw dust and God knows what chemical compounds are formed in there ( I'm pretty sure it's creates amines)...but the tree huggers love recycling stuff ....so it must be safe....night crawlers seem to like it.
As long as I add that magical ingredient......water ( which doesn't dissolve smokeless powder all by itself BTW).... life is good.
Context?...context? You can't handle the context.
Always remember, without chemicals, life itself wouldn't be possible.
 

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