IMR 4198 aka (ADI AR 2215) and H 4198 aka (ADI AR2207). I'm confused pls help.

[ShooterBob]

I've searched for an answer but can't find a direct complete answer.

I just bought a lb of IMR 4198. The package says the powder is made in Australia. The IMR 4198 that I have was made in Canada. To my eye aided with a 4X loupe the two powders look exactly alike.

I looked at web sites and found the MDSS that list the ADI numbers with the corrresponding IMR or Hodgdon powder shown above. When I look at the ADI site they do not show AR2215.

Are AR2215 and AR2207 the same? If they are different what are the differences?

My application is the .221 Fireball rifle.

Thank you for your help............Bob

 

[GerryM]

Re: IMR 4198 aka (ADI AR 2215) and H 4198 aka (ADI AR2007). I'm confused pls help.

Contact Ron Reiber at Hodgdon.
He more then likely has the answer.
My old Sierra Manual shows 4227 IMR as a good powder for the 221.

 

[camac]

Re: IMR 4198 aka (ADI AR 2215) and H 4198 aka (ADI AR2007). I'm confused pls help.

As far as I know ADI 2207 is Hodgdon 4198 and is made in AUstralia. IMR 4198 has equivalent speed but indeed is not made in the ADI lab (again "as far as I know"). Both work well in the same chambers but just make sure you back the Hodgdon loads down by about 2 grains before starting the IMR 4198 loads. I say this with some caution. Please try and get some confirmation before using this advice.

 

[garyw]

Re: IMR 4198 aka (ADI AR 2215) and H 4198 aka (ADI AR2007). I'm confused pls help.

the ADI website will give you the info you seek -saubier is running the same topic.

 

[camac]

Re: IMR 4198 aka (ADI AR 2215) and H 4198 aka (ADI AR2007). I'm confused pls help.

The ADI website is not very forthcoming with the info you seek. According to the rumours ADI is now supplying a lot of the IMR powders - especially where they are close to equivalent (as in this case). If your tin is stamped made in Australia and looks like H4198 I would say it is a fair chance it is ADI 2207 now and you can probably base your info on H4198, ADI 2207 load data (forget 2215). Still (as always) use caution when developing the load. Call IMR for confirmation and state you can't get any load data from their website.

 

[camac]

Re: IMR 4198 aka (ADI AR 2215) and H 4198 aka (ADI AR2007). I'm confused pls help.

Got a reply from ADI today. Cut and pasted below.
I would say there is still a chance Hodgdon have replaced the IMR 4198 with ADI 2207 without informing ADI yet so treat all advice on the cautionary side.

"Thank you for your enquiry of 9th August with regard to reloading using ADI Sporting
powders.
IMR 4198 was developed in the 1930s by the IMR Powder Company. This company
was purchased in 2003 by Hodgdon Powder Company but continues to trade under the
IMR brand, including IMR 4198 powder manufactured at their plant in Valleyfield,
Canada.
ADI propellants are also distributed in the US by Hodgdon, and our AR2207 propellant
is distributed by them under the name H4198. This propellant is very similar to IMR
4198, but it is not identical. It is very slightly slower. Across several representative
calibres, AR2207 tends to requires loads 1 to 1.5 grains greater for equivalent
velocities, but generates pressures several thousand p.s.i. lower. We do not have
available velocity spread data for IMR 4198 but in general, the more modern AR-2000
series ADI powders have from 5 to 20 times tighter velocity spread than the older IMR
4000 series powders.
Extreme caution should be taken and loads should be worked up accordingly. Refer to
our website at www.adi-powders.com.au or our 5th edition handloaders’ guide for more
information, warnings and reloading safety.
We thank you for using ADI Sporting Powders.
Yours sincerely,
ADI Technical Centre"

 

[Laurie]

Re: IMR 4198 aka (ADI AR 2215) and H 4198 aka (ADI AR2007). I'm confused pls help.

Adding ADI's response to camac to what's printed on ShooterBob's bottle suggests that Hodgdon has substituted the Australian manufactured ('Hodgdon') version for the Canadian ('IMR') variety, probably only on a temporary basis, and probably sometime during 2009.

I know that Hodgdon Powder, alongside other suppliers, really struggled to keep up with demand, especially in the home US market, during 2008 and 2009. With ADI's AR2207 being a little slower burning, such a substitution would be safe, if this is what happened.

If so, one can nevertheless see two possible problems arising. Loads previously worked up with the (Canadian) IMR version will be down on MV and possible also on accuracy if/when the slower burning (Australian) ADI version is substituted. Secondly, and potentially more seriously, anybody working the latter version up to an absolutely-on-the-pressure-limits load may well be in trouble on buying a new supply of the powder if it has reverted to the faster burning Canadian manufactured form between purchases.

Laurie,
York, England

 

[camac]

Re: IMR 4198 aka (ADI AR 2215) and H 4198 aka (ADI AR2007). I'm confused pls help.

Laurie, the second one really worries me so I sent a response back to ADI yesterday for them to investigate. It may well be Hodgdon might end up not producing the IMR powder in Canada anymore??? I do not know. Even still as you correctly pointed out, switching from one to another could cause serious problems. It is easy to imagine even if they never produce the original formula anymore from the factory that there is still a lot of canisters out there that were produced in Canada. Hence it is a very high possibility that a reloader could get a substituted "2207 / IMR 4198" and develop a load then get a can of the original formula.

This is scary....

 

[ShooterBob]

Re: IMR 4198 aka (ADI AR 2215) and H 4198 aka (ADI AR2007). I'm confused pls help.

camac and Laurie,
To me it's odd that ADI did not mention the AR2215 number or the fact that current cans of IMR4198 say made in Australia. The only place I've seen the AR2215 number is on the MDS for IMR4198 from the Hodgdon web site. ADI did provide a good answer on relative burn rate but I don't know whether he's talking about the Canadian or the Australian IMR. Unless something is added to to change the color of AR2207 it could not pass for either the Canadian or Australian IMR version. It's an interesting puzzle.

 

[bheadboy]

Re: IMR 4198 aka (ADI AR 2215) and H 4198 aka (ADI AR2007). I'm confused pls help.

to all of you this is most helpful,
I have used 4198 IMR for years in 221 and 222, with good resuts, in recent years got into H4198 (now i know Canadian) and had good results,

Then--i picked up 5# and had crazy variations of velocity/pressure/accurcy -

in looking at the cans after reading these post i find
1-canadian IMR
1-canadian H
3-Austrailian H

what you are warning about and Laurie has written is what i experienced

what is the 2215 ADI powder called by H.

Bob

 

[bheadboy]

Re: IMR 4198 aka (ADI AR 2215) and H 4198 aka (ADI AR2007). I'm confused pls help.


ShooterBob, what is MDSS and how do you access it for this type of data?

Thanks Bob

 

[ShooterBob]

bheadboy,
MDSS are Material Data Safety Sheets that are required for just about anything remotely hazardous. They are on the Hodgdon web site under products. It shows a bunch of the ADI Hodgdon and IMR correlations. So you have a Canadian H4198-- I didn't even know that one existed. Could you provide the approximate dates for when you purchased. 1-3.

Hodgdon lists IMR 4198 as AR2215 but ADI has no listing and so far hasn't acknowledged the existence of AR2215.

 

[bheadboy]

shooterbob, i went to the Hodgdon page, the term there is MSDS, which led to my confusion.

i bot the Canadian H4198 2-3 years ago, i do not know how long it had been on the shelf,
The Imr 4198 Canada, 4-5 years ago
and the h4198 ADI about 2 years ago

I used the load in a 221 for PD and in a 222 xp for sil shooting. the have changed so i now use RL powders, however knowing what these posting have given me i can go back and revisit the use of what i have on the shelf.

bob

 

[ShooterBob]

Sorry for the confusion. It is MSDS. Material Safety Data Sheet.

Thought a picture might help. Unfortunately the picture does not portray the color differences very well. The two IMR4198s are almost black and the H4198 is light gray. Although the IMRs appear the same to the naked eye there are differences in size. The Canadian IMR is .078-.082" in long and .026" diameter. The Australian IMR is .083-.091" long and .023-.025" in diameter.
The H4198 is .055-.062' long and .024" in diameter.

In the photo from left to right are: Australian IMR, Canadian IMR and H4198.

 

[bheadboy]

ShooterBob,

some one asked the differance of AR2207 - Hodgdon 4198, and AR 2215 (4198_

Well the AR2215 4198 is the IMR version of ADI 4198 while the AR2207 is the H4198

I would be willing to bet they are the same, just noted AR2215 to designate IMR packaging.

Bob

 

[ShooterBob]

Bob,
You may be right and maybe we're beating this to death but the stuff I bought labeled IMR4198 (aka 2215) made in Australia and the H4198 (aka 2207) made in Australia have different sized granules and different colors so it's hard for me to believe they are the same.

But they both seem to shoot good in my 221 Fireball. H4198 is a tad slower and because of the shorter granule length it seems to measure better. ShooterBob

 

[camac]

Guys, I will email ADI again on the AR2215 question but I don't expect a quick response.

Bob, if you have all three, maybe you could give us an indication if there is any load difference in the IMR 4198 - AUst vs Canadian. Maybe ADI does indeed make a IMR 4198 formula (2215) which is slightly different to the H 4198 formula. Incidently over here in Aus, I have never heard of it but makes sense that they may have developed it purely to replace the IMR powder with slightly different formula to 2207 and this is the reason it is not a safety concern for them.

 

[bheadboy]

to answer your question, the Canadian IMR is fastest and most accurate in my 221 with 50gr blitzkings at 2950fps from a 22 inch Hart bbl on a 40x action. 1/4"-3/8" consistant
The ADI IMR is next but slower
the H4198 ADI 2207 is the slowest and least desirable as the bulk makes it very very full in a 221 when looking for the ssame velocity, it is not as accurate.
I use the 221 a lot as it is one of my favorite PD rounds.

Bob

 

[Jeffreytooker]

Gentlemen:

Both powders H-4198 and IMR-4198 have to make their respective windows in closed bomb testing to be sold as canister powder in the US. All other things being equal they two distinctively different powders and should be treated as such. In a 30BR H-4198 shoots well. IMR-4198 not so well. Also if one is to do much shooting by powder in large enough amounts that you can have a good amount of the same powder lot number. Changing lots of the same powder can sometimes cause one to have to re tune a load due to lot to lot variations of the same powder.
Jeffrey

 

[debubba]

Re: IMR 4198 aka (ADI AR 2215) and H 4198 aka (ADI AR2207). I'm confused pls help.

Do theese shenanigans only pertain to 4198 or is this going on across the IMR line?