IMR 4166 in My Dasher

[CaptainMal]

Test today was to deal with velocity and NOT accuracy. Was also looking for pressure signs and to do a brief comparison with Varget.

The rifle is a 30" bbl built with a Savage action by Eric Bostrom. It has 2,100 rods down the Krieger tube and I have another Krieger to replace it with. Darn thing won the Manatee shoot last Saturday so I'm holding off. This test was also to see where I might start if I wanted to use 4166 in the other barrel.

Tested using my fireform 107 SMK bullets. For target I use Berger 105 Hybrids. I also did a direct comparison using my normal Varget load with the same amount of 4166 and the Bergers'.

Hopefully you can read the results with the picture. I put a marker sight dots on a line across both targets. The grain weight of 4166 is right below the dots. The velocity of two shots for each weight is near the bullet impacts.

Started with 31.0 gr. - far left...endd with 33.0 gr. - far right. Velocities ranged from 2849 - 2996 with the 107's.

Testing with the Berger 105's show up on the right two boxes. Left box is 32.6 gr of 4166. Right box is 32.6 gr. of Varget with the 105 Hybrids. That's my normal load. Velocities are identical for the 4166 - 3009 fps. The varget did 3003 and 2992 fps***. Normally I am right around 3000 fps for my Berger/Varget load of 32.6 gr.

***This is wrong as written in the picture.

My conclusions are that the ES is as good as my Varget experience. That means real good. Also think the velocity is near identical for equal weights of both powders. 4166 showed a bit more volume fill in the case. That may be due to the grain structure which is much like IMR 4064 to my eyes.



I am NOT an experienced benchrest shooter. I am just a "Joe" named Larry. Sometimes I even hit the target and win local club shoots. One thing I am is a shooter. I'm just not a competitive benchrest shooter and precision reloader. These were my results today. I expect to try 4166 again after I replace the old barrel on my rifle.

Oh ... Thought it was dirty like Varget. Butches Bore Shine was a mess after 5 soaked patches and then some brushing. After drying I used Bore Tech C4 to finally get clean patches. My take on that is 4166 is also a carbon fouler like Varget. That I do not like as this particular barrel came near to ruin because of Varget carbon fouling.

There's supposed to be some kind of CFE in this powder. I looked for copper fouling but saw none. This barrel has never copper fouled so that topic is probably not relevant.

Remember - ignore group size. I did not even attach my tuner brake for this test. It was for velocity and pressure signs (none) only. 100 yards and high winds from right to left would have made short-range groups tough.

Hope I helped.

 

[Brians356]

Just yesterday I read the cover article in the new 2015 Hodgdon reloading annual all about these three new IMR Enduron powders including 4166. While I don't have the article to hand, I know there was much made of a lot less powder fouling than the powder(s) is was intended to replace or compete with. (Also the CFE effect, and temperature insensitivity.)

I noted in particular that the author (John Barsness?) used plain rubbing alcohol (I believe a half dozen or so patches) to remove the powder fouling, before to switching to Montana Xtreme copper solvent.

PS I find it very odd that IMR does not even mention 4166 or the other two new Enduron powders on their web site!

 

[Trevor60]

Hi Interesting results thanks for sharing

with your varget load; are you at the top end of your pressure window?
How did your brass/primers look with the same charge of 4166

The reason i ask is that on Jay Cutright'ss thread he appeared to get an extra 175fps without pressure sign
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3858751.msg36484839#msg36484839

I am hoping different testers have similar results and there is more juice to squeeze out of 4166 vs. varget

Much appreciated
Trevor

 

[Chaotik]

Thanks for sharing this information, Larry.
I have been tempted to try 4166 if Varget becomes completely unavailable, but right now I still have a few pounds.

Looking forward to your impressions about the accuracy of this powder when you get a load tuned.

Too bad it does not appear to be cleaner than Varget (I am struggling with keeping the carbon ring at bay).

Hopefully I can make over to Manatee next month for the 600 yard shoot.

-Bob

 

[Brians356]

Too bad it does not appear to be cleaner than Varget (I am struggling with keeping the carbon ring at bay).

I don't use Varget, but my friend does, and when I relayed your experience w/ 4166 to him, he replied:

"I've used Varget in 223, 22-250, and 243 and found it to be one of the cleanest powders I have ever used!"

He shoots only lightweight varmint bullets, FWIW. Maybe he's confusing Varget w/ Benchmark or ?? in his memory.

Are you chaps referring to ordinary powder fouling or some harder carbon build-up?

 

[CaptainMal]

Trevor and others...

I only went to 33.0 grains. Never noticed any change in primer impressions over a similar Varget load. Did not go above that so I can't comment on what might happen going higher. My guess is it could easily go higher in grain weight and velocity before showing pressure.

Carbon fouling and build-up in the throat was my problem with Varget. Hideous pressure ring flat out blew my cases and primers apart at about the 1,000 rd. mark. Prior to that I only used Shooter's Choice, Pro Shot, Barnes and Butches' solvents. All are near worthless for carbon. I never knew and messed up that barrel big time.

After scoping and throwing away over a hundred near-new Lapua cases I was introduced to C4 Carbon Cleaner and Iosso Bore Paste. Took literally days of constant scrubbing to even shoot the thing again. That's when I ordered the new barrel.

Over about a month and hideous scrubbing with the Iosso and C4, all looked normal and the barrel has been shooting super the past 800 rds. Today I had to go to C4 to get things clean. That was distressing but the carbon build-up can be dealt with if you know it's there and use the right products.

Today, that was my only disappointment.

Now don't you guys all buy up the stuff so it also is not available. I agonized over just that issue before posting. Only have that one 8lb. jug. Really should get another while it is still available.

 

[expiper]

Mel....any powder burns dirty if the pressure is low,,,,,Roger
PS,,if you drive your car with the choke pulled the tail pipe gets full of soot,,,,it aint a tru-ism,,,its common sense,,,,,

 

[CaptainMal]

Never heard anything like that before. Is it some kind of "truism"?

What is LOW pressure? I mean if a little case like the Dasher sends out a bullet weighing over 100 grs. at speeds in the 3,000 ft. range, isn't that HIGH pressure?

"Low" and "high" are relative terms. I have no clue what the pressure is on my normal 32.6 gr. Varget loads. I just know that it's dirty. Seems like this 4166 is also dirty, meaning lots of black carbon "soot".

 

[Liven The Dream]

Thank you one and all.

I will he heading to the range today. 4166 takes on Varget for my Palma Rifle .

.308 155 Sierra's I hope to post some info. that will be will who knows.

 

[Brians356]

Carbon fouling and build-up in the throat was my problem with Varget. Hideous pressure ring flat out blew my cases and primers apart at about the 1,000 rd. mark. Prior to that I only used Shooter's Choice, Pro Shot, Barnes and Butches' solvents. All are near worthless for carbon. I never knew and messed up that barrel big time.

Well, that answers my question. You're referring to hard carbon (localized) not common powder fouling. I presume you were cleaning out powder fouling regularly, using those solvents, and always reached what you reckoned was "clean" judging from the patches. If the cleaning out of powder fouling was relatively easy, then you might even have judged Varget to not be particularly "dirty". If the carbon you discovered was that hard and difficult to remove, I presume it left no trace on the patches to indicate it was there, otherwise it wouldn't have gone undetected so long. Were you using a bronze brush regularly with the solvents you mentioned?

So, my friend's perception that Varget is the cleanest-burning powder he's ever tried is not necessarily an outlier - as it relates to common powder fouling. Since he'll never get close to running 1000 rounds through anything, and he regularly runs a bronze brush through everything, it's not unlikely he will never experience any hard carbon build-up.

And, it's possible many other powders would have produced that carbon build-up, given your shooting and cleaning regimen. There's nothing unusual about Varget (is there?) - many Hodgdon and IMR powders are essentially identical in basic composition, only the kernel size, inhibitors, and burn rates are different.

Your cautionary tale is well noted, however. It makes me want to get a bore scope and check all my bores!

 

[JamesnTN]

Here's my data I posted in another thread with my results using the 4166 powder in my dasher.

32.0 avg 2917 fps ES 19 group size 2.067
32.3 avg 2942 fps ES 12 group size 2.050
32.6 avg 2977 fps ES 14 group size 2.354
32.9 avg 2989 fps ES 9 group size 1.154
33.2 avg 3016 fps ES 7 group size 2.738
33.4 avg 3042 Fps ES 7 group size 2.047


Here's my Varget loads the same day.

32.3 avg 2953 ES 6 group 1.350
32.5 avg 2964 ES 5 group 1.191
32.7 avg 2978 ES 7 group 2.324

 

[ShootDots]

James, it appears that your E.S.'s go down with the increase in pressure with 4166>>>BUT your group sizes go up! That is a paradox I heartily dislike! I have had that happen to me just recently.. So it seems that Varget may still be the "go to" powder in your rifle.. Too bad, it seems like IMR 4166 is a good powder looking for a "good home"!

 

[JamesnTN]

James, it appears that your E.S.'s go down with the increase in pressure with 4166>>>BUT your group sizes go up! That is a paradox I heartily dislike! I have had that happen to me just recently.. So it seems that Varget may still be the "go to" powder in your rifle.. Too bad, it seems like IMR 4166 is a good powder looking for a "good home"!

I think I can find another accuracy node with a few more tenths of powder added. I think I can safely reach 34.0 grains and it'll come around. But once the temps get back up where I prefer to do my testing I'll have to back back off a good half grain maybe more, I'm just not sure yet how temp stable this new powder is.

Oh those groups were shot at 500 yards

 

[ShootDots]

I would appreciate it if you keep us posted.. I am interested in that powder for the Dasher..

 

[Brians356]

I'm just not sure yet how temp stable this new powder is.

I believe IMR touts the Enduron powders to be very temperature insensitive (like Hodgdon's "Extreme" powders.) Your comparative data gathered in higher ambient temperature will thus be informative.

 

[masterblaster1]

Wonder id the similar load weight/velocity will be found in 308?

 

[CaptainMal]

Brians ... The answer in kind is, "Yes". I extensively cleaned, often with a bronze brush but mostly plastic. I did not see the carbon ring build. When pressure signs got ridiculous, only a bore scope spotted the problem. Then, only a carbon cleaner, like Bore Tech C-4 and Iosso, would deal with it. Actually surprised they did as that exam showed 8" of disaster.

Oh, the bore scoping was done by Eric Bostrom, the builder of the gun. At the time he said it was the worst he ever saw. He was not sure it could be corrected so we ordered another barrel.

I still use Varget in that barrel but clean differently. Also use Varget in an 18" bbl 30-06 carbine. Only thing, like so many with hunting rifles, it would take a lifetime to shoot enough to know there was a problem building.

Nice to see another report showing close velocities and good ES comparing Varget with 4166.

 

[Eric Leonard]

in my 6.5x47 and 140 Hybirds 36 grs 4166 gives speeds and accuracy pretty much exactly the same as 36 Varget,,

it may not mean anything but the powder fouling looks blue instead of black,,even the edge of bullet holes on white paper looks blueish instead of black,,IDK what that means if anything but thought it looked weird,,

I am gonna try the 4166 in my 6 BRDX very soon,,

 

[CaptainMal]

It was flat black and think black (whatever that means) on my patches, inside the regular muzzle brake I used for that test, and on the outside of the crown.

Hope you do the test and respond.