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Importance: Caliber Vs. Wind Reading Skills

savagedasher said:
Accuracy will normally beat BC any time under the same conditions. If you take a gun that shoots
.250 at 100yd in that is 2.50'' at 1000yd then take one that shoot 1'' that will be 10'' at 1000 yd . Good shooter will kick you Butt
Larry
[br]
That's known as a straw man argument, Larry. Top competitors have rifles that deliver excellent accuracy, regardless of cartridge. What of your premise when someone has a rifle that shoots 180, 215 or 230 Hybrids at high velocity to <.2 MOA? The top F-Open competitors are so close in equipment and skill that it comes down to who can do best in the conditions that day or match. If you want to win at the national level, you cannot cede anything. Here are the six F-Open medal positions from the F-Class Nationals. If there had been another day, some of those names and the order would be different.

Shooter
Larry Bartholome
Kenny Adams
Freddy Haltom
William Wittman
Steven Blair
John Myers
Score
1283
1281
1281
1281
1280
1279
X
59
66
52
50
52
45
 
As Steve said, the top guys all have great rifles and it comes down to who reads the wind best, and that is often the person who gets beat up the least when the relay from hell comes along. That said, a new shooter has to learn both how to get a rifle that groups well and how to read the wind. So where to start?? Bryan Litz does a great job showing how grouping ability of the rifle and wind reading ability of the shooter translate to points on the target in his Applied Ballistics books which are full of all sorts of useful info. And, in his analysis, both are of equal importance. That is, a novice reloader with world class wind reading skills will score about the same as an elite reloader with novice wind reading skills and so on. But I believe that a new shooter can become an elite level reloader and rifle tuner way faster than he or she can become an elite wind reader. And a good grouping rifle takes away any excuse for a poor shot which can help with learning to dope the wind better. And the scoring rings are wider in the middle than they are at the top and bottom which often results in some nice scores in mild conditions for a new shooter with a gun that shoots well. And it is important to know the grouping ability of your rifle, whatever it is, because otherwise it is very difficult to center your group on the target. And all of the top shooters center their groups with great consistency. All of the useful books on wind doping, Bryan's, Nancy Tompkins' and Linda Miller's to name a couple, have sections that illustrate the importance of centering the group. Just my $0.02.
 
savagedasher said:
And if ever gun would only shoot 1'' at a hundred the same name would be at the top.
Larry
[br]
No, that's not correct, either. The Worlds immediately followed the Nationals and Larry placed 15th. If all rifles shot exactly the same, there would still be churn at the top because of the specific conditions in a given match. [br]
Regardless, your point is irrelevant because rifle and ammunition performance is an integral part of winning. Ninety percent of winning is preparation; equipment, skill and mental. The remaining ten percent is what we do at the range. So, it is not possible to separate the shooter's performance from equipment performance. If you want to win, everything must be nearly perfect.
 
Hey, JoeC, just noticed that you list yourself as "Student of the 1911" ....
Brings back memories of my introduction to the 1911 (back about 1957) with a military pistol team. Did a lot of damage to the knuckle on the left thumb with a two hand hold. Scar is still there. Be sure not to let that left thumb get too high - if it collides with the recoiling slide it can ruin your day. ;)
 
Steve Blair said:
Regardless, your point is irrelevant because rifle and ammunition performance is an integral part of winning. Ninety percent of winning is preparation; equipment, skill and mental. The remaining ten percent is what we do at the range. So, it is not possible to separate the shooter's performance from equipment performance. If you want to win, everything must be nearly perfect.
^
|
Truer words have yet to be written.
 
F-Class is an agg game. If you and your gun will "agg" one or two points every match more than the other shooters due to wind or accuracy, you will do very well unless you have a train wreck.

The "agg" aspect of it is why some F-T/R shooters will shoot right up there with the best F-Open shooters for ONE day, but when the tournament is over, their "agg" is well below the best F-Open shooter's agg.

If ballistics didn't matter, F-T/R and F-Open shooters would have similar scores, but they don't.
 
I believe that equipment can make an excellent shooter BETTER. On the other hand, the BEST equipment in the hands of a "less than stellar" shooter will do little good at all. EXAMPLE: I love to golf, however, I do it VERY little and my "abilities" are "far less than stellar" as it were. Give me a set of Calloways that the Pros use and my scores will still be in the tank! Give Tiger Woods a "Wal-Mart" set of clubs and he will still do VERY well. Give him that set of Calloways and he will EXCEL! His abilities will bring out the best of the best equipment and the equipment will bring out the best of his abilities! Same with rifles. Get a BAT / Panda / OR YOUR PICK, put a Brux, Kreiger or Bartlein barrel on it and make loads that shoot to the best that rifle can deliver, and a GREAT shooter will be at his best. Wind reading, holding the rifle exactly the same way, consistent delivery of the bullet to the target with excellent equipment is a shooters best hope of excellent scores. Take ANY one of those "accuracy legs" away and the scores will suffer.
 
Shootdots, I believe you missed the point. This discussion is about caliber vs. wind reading, not custom guns vs. factory guns.
 
Erik, I don't believe I missed the point... The original question was "caliber vs wind reading skills". I think that if you are #1: in competition; #2: making effort to get better scores and #3: questioning about caliber(s) / B.C.'s of bullets and wind reading skills, the person has made some, and maybe a substantial investment in equipment and time, not to mention $$$s on components. This person wants to know what MAY be the most important "component" of this game. I think all these "components" are intrinsically tied to each other and can not realistically be separated out. So I gave him, what I considered to be the "whole ball of wax" so that he sees what he is actually confronting in an attempt to better his scores... That's all... I simply expounded on his question...
 
ShootDots said:
Erik, I don't believe I missed the point... The original question was "caliber vs wind reading skills". I think that if you are #1: in competition; #2: making effort to get better scores and #3: questioning about caliber(s) / B.C.'s of bullets and wind reading skills, the person has made some, and maybe a substantial investment in equipment and time, not to mention $$$s on components. This person wants to know what MAY be the most important "component" of this game. I think all these "components" are intrinsically tied to each other and can not realistically be separated out. So I gave him, what I considered to be the "whole ball of wax" so that he sees what he is actually confronting in an attempt to better his scores... That's all... I simply expounded on his question...

No, what he wants to know is if he should stay with his 6mm and learn to read the wind or get something bigger for long range. He is asking what is more important, wind reading or ballistics.

Bottom line is, do you think a good wind reader with a 6mm will beat guys with 7mm's that read the wind as good as him?
 
If you have 2 equal shooters (as far as their ability to read the wind) the 7mm will win hands down. I was shooting in one of our 600 yard matches earlier this year. The wind was stout and blustery with gusts coming at any moment. Primarily I was holding directly on the #8 and as long as the wind did not let up ( no way to tell as it was well over 12m.p.h.) I would hit a solid 10. BUT the wind flags were STRAIGHT OUT whether the wind was 10 or 15 and I could not tell the velocity... When I missed the 10, it would invariably land in the 9, CLOSE to the ten, BUT close is not good enough. Charles Schneider was shooting his 7Walker with 180Hybrids.. He was holding on the #9, his "miss" was on the right side of the 10 ring>>>STILL in the 10 ring.. Charles is an excellent shot NO DOUBT, but his 180Hybrids helped him considerably that day! That's why I stated that ALL of the legs of "accuracy" in "our sport" need to be met or scores WILL suffer! Mine certainly did! Having a 7mm over a 6mm or for that matter a 6.5mm IS having better equipment when the wind blows!
 
Erik Cortina said:
No, what he wants to know is if he should stay with his 6mm and learn to read the wind or get something bigger for long range. He is asking what is more important, wind reading or ballistics.

Bottom line is, do you think a good wind reader with a 6mm will beat guys with 7mm's that read the wind as good as him?

Erik,

You are the one who is mistaken. I am not talking about a specific caliber at all. I am asking very simply, what is more important, caliber choice or ones ability to read the wind. We all know that certain calibers can, do and will shoot better than others. And there are some that have been proven to shoot as good as others which are proclaimed to be the magic pill.

The point of this is to have an open conversation regarding what is TRULY more important. Caliber choice or wind.

One of the reasons I bring this up, besides my own ravenous desire to learn and become a better marksman, is something that has been rolling around in my head for some time. I have several friends that are crossing over from sling to FTR and watching these guys who have shot sling and irons for 30+ years come on to the F-Class scene (mostly due to eye sight and physical limitations) has been very interesting because they can truly read the wind like very few F-class shooters I've ever seen.

So, lets not turn this into a pissing contest about who got my question right or not. I am enjoying all the comments. And ShootDots, I totally understand what you were getting at with the whole ball of wax comments.

Steve Blair, I'm honored that you would even comment on this thread.

Lapua40X, ya, I might know my way around studying a 1911 a little bit. ;-)

And all the others, please, continue, I'm learning much here as I go into the next stage of rifle shooting for myself and for fun...
 
Hi Joe
Great topic,For Myself shooting has always been a progression I can remember trying to shoot the eraser off a pencil at 75yds when I was a kid.Today I love to shoot F-open,some At 600 where my 6br hammers,most of the time its at 1000.
I have been shooting the 6br for 3 years now and learning how to judge the wind when to shoot when not to shoot .The last couple matches where in the 190's .Makes me wonder if its time to break out the 6.5x284?
good luck
JFM
 
Joe C said:
The point of this is to have an open conversation regarding what is TRULY more important. Caliber choice or wind.

Its been said already - they are both important. Arguably at club level you can separate them and say the wind reader will most likely win, even with a large ballistic disadvantage.

Once you reach Regional - definitely National and most definitely Worlds you cannot separate them.

With respect to; are you loosing focus/focusing in the wrong area - possibly - my question back is - what is your plan to build your wind skills? If you have to think abut that then you have already answered your question.
 
JoeC, in that case, you need both. You need a good accurate caliber with good/great wind bucking ability and good/great wind reading skills. However, you will find out that both, caliber and wind reading skills, will not perform to your expectations 100% of the time. Sometimes you will shoot a great score and think to yourself that it was easy while all others are cursing the conditions.

Here's something to chew on, sometimes timing is more important than both caliber and wind reading ability.
 
Erik Cortina said:
JoeC, in that case, you need both. You need a good accurate caliber with good/great wind bucking ability and good/great wind reading skills. However, you will find out that both, caliber and wind reading skills, will not perform to your expectations 100% of the time. Sometimes you will shoot a great score and think to yourself that it was easy while all others are cursing the conditions.

Here's something to chew on, sometimes timing is more important than both caliber and wind reading ability.

+1
 
chefpierre said:
Steve Blair said:
Erik Cortina said:

Bottom line is, do you think a good wind reader with a 6mm will beat guys with 7mm's that read the wind as good as him?
[br]
No. ;)


Possibly, I beleive
[br]
Take a break from winter, come to Phoenix in February, bring your 6mm and take your best shot. You'll have plenty of 7's and .30's available to beat. ;)
 

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