Im really lost right now.

[Webster]

So i wanted to try out some 50 gr sierra blitz kings in my 22-250rem 1-14 twist, a buddy gave me some to try. my best group was .2" of 4 shots and my worst was .5" 4 shots out of 7 diffrent charges. Loaded with H380 and CCI BR2 and lapua brass. The .2" group was with 38.5grs and a average velocity of 3580 fps out of a 20 inch barrel. The other node was at 40-40.5 bit is to hot for my liking. Not to shabby. Heres where i am confused, this is a polyomer tipped boat tail BC of .248 and length of .77" and every stability calculator i used said it had a stability of .92 and expect keyholes and terrible groups, optimal twist of 1-11". These are by far the most acvurate bullet this gun has ever shot. Did i miss something?

I think bearing length affects stability. It probably isn't in the calculator.

The Sierra manual gives the following.
They tested 40-60 gr bullets with a 14 twist
63 & 65 gr requires a 10 twist or faster
80 gr requires a 7 or 8 twist

Sounds like you have the correct twist. The results tell the story.

 

[msinc]

Heres where i am confused, this is a polyomer tipped boat tail BC of .248 and length of .77" and every stability calculator i used said it had a stability of .92 and expect keyholes and terrible groups, optimal twist of 1-11". These are by far the most acvurate bullet this gun has ever shot. Did i miss something?

Here's where I am confused....who or what is telling you that a 50 grain .224" bullet needs 1-in-11" twist to "stabilize"????? I agree, as previously posted, that depending on how fast or slow they are being twisted for their weight/shape {maybe we should call it "configuration"???}, a given bullet can take some time {which equals yards} to de-stabilize, yaw and flip.
Could it be that with these "twist calculators" you might be somehow providing a bad input and skewing the solution??? I don't know because I haven't as yet needed to use one. I have been at this for a long time and I have always found 1-in-14" twist rate to stabilize up to 55 grain bullets. The one thing usually not discussed whenever twist rates and stabilization pops up is factoring in the range. In example, it is generally regarded that to shoot somewhere over 130 grain bullets in a 6.5 {in my case a 260 rem.} you want a 1-in-8" twist, but my 1-in-9" barrel shoots great groups with 140's at 100 yards {actually also at 200}....start to get out there past 500 and they flip.
I get that sometimes higher velocity can require faster twist, but then just about every 22-250 on the planet is still wearing a 1-in-14" twist barrel. Calculators aside, I have found 1-in-14: to be fine up to 55 grain bullets, 1-in-12" for the low 60's, 1-in-9" for the 69 grain pills and 1-in-7" for the 75's and up.
I would also add that I have always been told and read that you want the slowest twist rate that will still adequately stabilize the bullet for best accuracy and I have seen exceptions but generally found this to be true. The fact that all barrels could just be made in a 1-in-7 twist and call it a day...but they are not, supports this.

 

[dkhunt14]

I would also add that I have always been told and read that you want the slowest twist rate that will still adequately stabilize the bullet for best accuracy and I have seen exceptions but generally found this to be true. The fact that all barrels could just be made in a 1-in-7 twist and call it a day...but they are not, supports this.

I have not found this to be true at long distance. At 1000 yards, when conditions get bad it will cost you. If the bullets are not spinning enough the winds will get you more. It is because the bullets are on the edge of stability. As an example a 1 in 11 twist will stabilize a 210 Berger and shoot great groups at 1000. When conditions get bad, a 1 in 10 twist seems to shoot through the conditions better. I believe it is because the bullet has more stability. I saw this by comparing many barrels at 1000.

My one buddy saw the great groups I was shooting in competition and decided his 10 twist wasn't as good. He ordered an 11 and never told me. At the end of the year he told me the 11 doesn't handle the bad conditions and winds like the 10 did. I believe it is all the extra stability the 10 allows. This comparison was made with multiple barrels and over several seasons of 1000 yard Bench rest shooting 10 matches of 10 shot groups.

For 100 yard shooting it might not make much difference but the farther out you shoot it shows. That extra BC you gain by the faster twist does show up at distance. Matt

 

[dellet]

Spin provides lift.

Instability robs energy.

The greater the distance, the less chance you will get away with marginal.

All good things can be over done.

 

[msinc]

I have not found this to be true at long distance............ Matt

Then, just as I said...the bullet was not "adequately stabilized". Key word "adequately"...slowest twist to adequately get the bullet stabilized so it don't come unglued before it reaches the distance required. This may be a better way of saying it.
In my post I wrote some basic, given, acknowledged twist rates for given weights and calibers, but I should have said that twist rate "required" may be flexible contingent with range/conditions.
I agree and understand exactly what you are saying in your example, but it's apples to oranges in this case.....who seriously tries to use a 1-in-14 twist 22-250 with a 50 grain bullet at 1000 yards????? Still, what you describe will happen, but at a much closer range and in less conditions. I always shoot heavier bullets in worse conditions and sometimes it can help, sometimes not {the way I shoot!!!} maybe "conditions" are what skewed the original twist calculator????
Dellet probably answered it best.

Edit: when I used the word "unglued" in this post I was referring to yawl and flip {destabilizing}, not a jacket failure and disintegration. I figure I had best edit to clarify this, god forbid another person have a meltdown and loose it like one already has. My most sincere apologies for my poor choice of words in this post.

 

[dellet]

Doing some early testing on a new bullet designed for subsonic 300 Blackout. It's 265 grain cast and powder coated. This is a 50 yard target, three different twists. Looking at stability, this greatly exaggerates the topic.

The five unmarked holes would be in what was considered the optimal twist of 1/7. ES 45, N105 powder

The five shots hash marked are a fast twist 1/5. ES 21 N105 powder

The five circled are a slow twist 1/10. ES 85. N120 powder

Here's the 1/5 at 100 yards. Cast and powder coated at home can be hard to balance. Probably a case of over spinning and bullet balance causing the keyhole.

Sorry for the sideways pic.

This is the 1/10 at 100.
Calculators says marginal stability for length, weight, twist and velocity, if it was a Jacketed bullet.

It had the best group and probably the best holes checking stability at 50 yards. Based on the information only from the 50 yard target, I would have gone with the 1/10.

With supers, you might not pick this up until a 1000 yards, doesn't mean it's not happening at 100.

One of the fun things with subsonic shooting, is you have all the problems of long range, in a quarter of the distance and you only have to store 1/8th of the powder.

Side note:
A much slower powder was used with the 1/10 twist. How the bullet obturates seems to also play a role in stability. I understand most people will not double the chamber pressure and stay at the same velocity, but I have seen this play out in both cast and solid copper bullets. Jacketed seem more forgiving.

 

[Curmudgeon]

First, I don't shoot a 22-250. I do shoot a 243 Ackley with a 10 twist that I enjoy cranking up for minute of squirrel. My break point is 80 grains for bullets that are tipped. Anything more with a solid won't shoot. I use the online JBM calculator that allows me to deduct the polymer tip length from the bullet length to calculate stability. This helps me process bullets that might be compatible with this rifle. This is a very fast and flat shooting rifle. I hope this contributes something. Many of my shooting friends swear by their 22-250's. Cheers.

 

[mikecr]

Here's where I am confused....who or what is telling you that a 50 grain .224" bullet needs 1-in-11" twist to "stabilize"?????

He never said it needed 11:1 to stabilize, but for 'optimal twist' (which you quoted above). Also, this was based on his lower calculated values because the tip was not subtracted in his calcs at first. Would you have known to do that?

The one thing usually not discussed whenever twist rates and stabilization pops up is factoring in the range. In example, it is generally regarded that to shoot somewhere over 130 grain bullets in a 6.5 {in my case a 260 rem.} you want a 1-in-8" twist, but my 1-in-9" barrel shoots great groups with 140's at 100 yards {actually also at 200}....start to get out there past 500 and they flip.

You wouldn't find this discussed much because it isn't happening due to stabilization, and it isn't happening from blow-ups out of a 260rem in 9tw/140s. I doubt it is happening at all.

I get that sometimes higher velocity can require faster twist

Who or what is telling you that????

I would also add that I have always been told and read that you want the slowest twist rate that will still adequately stabilize the bullet for best accuracy and I have seen exceptions but generally found this to be true.

Do you know what 'adequately stable' is, or what can take you in or out of it?
For everything, there is too much and too little w/resp to an optimum.

The fact that all barrels could just be made in a 1-in-7 twist and call it a day...but they are not, supports this.

They could all be made in 14tw, providing for another appeal to extremes fallacy.

Could it be that with these "twist calculators" you might be somehow providing a bad input and skewing the solution??? I don't know because I haven't as yet needed to use one.

Some do muddle up their inputs because they don't understand all of them, or the software. I suspect you would be one of them.
Maybe you haven't noticed the observations of others, or read on any of this subject, but We're not just making this stuff up.

 

[long40shot]

Things can be difficult if they are over thought.

 

[Mtstalker]

So with the new numbers it looks like i should be good according to bergers site. Hopefully saturday i can get out and shoot a bit farther. My original load was with midway dogtown 50gr bullets at 3600 with RL15. These shoot just fine to 400yds or at least i can hit a praire dog that far if the wind isnt playing its tricks. The 50gr dogtown is .655" long so its .025" longer than the sierra without the tip. If anything i should pick up some stability. Only the targets will tell. As soon as i do i will do a update. Thanks for the help guys.

 

[T-shooter]

So i wanted to try out some 50 gr sierra blitz kings in my 22-250rem 1-14 twist, a buddy gave me some to try. my best group was .2" of 4 shots and my worst was .5" 4 shots out of 7 diffrent charges. Loaded with H380 and CCI BR2 and lapua brass. The .2" group was with 38.5grs and a average velocity of 3580 fps out of a 20 inch barrel. The other node was at 40-40.5 bit is to hot for my liking. Not to shabby. Heres where i am confused, this is a polyomer tipped boat tail BC of .248 and length of .77" and every stability calculator i used said it had a stability of .92 and expect keyholes and terrible groups, optimal twist of 1-11". These are by far the most acvurate bullet this gun has ever shot. Did i miss something?

There is more than the numbers in play. Have you checked the head spacing with that bullet in your rifle? I was recently doing some checking with a .223 Wylde AR. The Sierra 69 grain Tipped and the Hornady 75 grain BTHP Match are about identical in overall length. For the distance to the rifling, The Sierra measured 2.374" but the Hornady measures only 2.271" average due to the contour of the bullet. I have magazines that will handle 2.300" lengths and I usually run everything as long as I can allowing a bit of room for the jump. With the Hornady 75's, I set the overall length to 2.250" for about .020" jump. If you're running close, you may need to check each lot number. 2 different lots of the Hornady 75's averaged .014" difference in overall length.

 

[Sniper338]

Ive had some damn good luck with 52gr berger varmint bullets in the 22 250 14 twist..

Fwiw..

 

[msinc]

He never said it needed 11:1 to stabilize, but for 'optimal twist' (which you quoted above). Also, this was based on his lower calculated values because the tip was not subtracted in his calcs at first. Would you have known to do that?
You wouldn't find this discussed much because it isn't happening due to stabilization, and it isn't happening from blow-ups out of a 260rem in 9tw/140s. I doubt it is happening at all.
Who or what is telling you that????

Do you know what 'adequately stable' is, or what can take you in or out of it?
For everything, there is too much and too little w/resp to an optimum.
They could all be made in 14tw, providing for another appeal to extremes fallacy.

Some do muddle up their inputs because they don't understand all of them, or the software. I suspect you would be one of them.
Maybe you haven't noticed the observations of others, or read on any of this subject, but We're not just making this stuff up.

I am glad you are upset. Put me on your ignore list, drink a warm milk bottle and try to get over it. Would you have known to do this?????? Well, now you do!!!

 

[Mtstalker]

Dogtown cbto and sierra cbto are the same when seated. As far as the bullets themself the dogtown is .368" base to ogive and the sierra is .378"

 

[seymour fish]

So i wanted to try out some 50 gr sierra blitz kings in my 22-250rem 1-14 twist, a buddy gave me some to try. my best group was .2" of 4 shots and my worst was .5" 4 shots out of 7 diffrent charges. Loaded with H380 and CCI BR2 and lapua brass. The .2" group was with 38.5grs and a average velocity of 3580 fps out of a 20 inch barrel. The other node was at 40-40.5 bit is to hot for my liking. Not to shabby. Heres where i am confused, this is a polyomer tipped boat tail BC of .248 and length of .77" and every stability calculator i used said it had a stability of .92 and expect keyholes and terrible groups, optimal twist of 1-11". These are by far the most acvurate bullet this gun has ever shot. Did i miss something?

Yes. About 6" of barrel

 

[Brians356]

I have a .220 Swift AI , 1:14 twist ... IT WON'T SHOOT 53 grain Vmax's and I know why.

Why?
-

 

[Coolhand]

Why?
-

Because the 1:14 barrel I have is one of the few that does not like 53 grain Vmax's, something to do with the ogive and bearing surface. I emailed Hornady and they stated that they suggest a 1:12 or faster for the 53 grain Vmax. Oddly my 1:14 will shoot a group with them but close inspection shows the bullets holes oval. I have maxed the load out and slowed it down but the bullet holes are oval, not much but significant enough to see that the 53 Vmax is not stable.

Mike.

 

[mikecr]

Yes there is a lot more to stability than weight or velocity or the twist rates factories choose.

 

[Webster]

So i wanted to try out some 50 gr sierra blitz kings in my 22-250rem 1-14 twist, a buddy gave me some to try. my best group was .2" of 4 shots and my worst was .5" 4 shots out of 7 diffrent charges. Loaded with H380 and CCI BR2 and lapua brass. The .2" group was with 38.5grs and a average velocity of 3580 fps out of a 20 inch barrel. The other node was at 40-40.5 bit is to hot for my liking. Not to shabby. Heres where i am confused, this is a polyomer tipped boat tail BC of .248 and length of .77" and every stability calculator i used said it had a stability of .92 and expect keyholes and terrible groups, optimal twist of 1-11". These are by far the most acvurate bullet this gun has ever shot. Did i miss something?

Best answer: Call or E-mail the bullet manufacturer for recommended twist. If they publish a reloading manual what twist do they recommend. Don't worry about some computer program. Sounds like a varmint hunting rifle. Shoot some groups a 300 or 400 yards and see if they are still good. If you don't have a range to shoot at put a target on a cardboard box in a hay field and shoot at it. I think most people would be very happy with the groups your shooting.

 

[wallacem]

My 22-250 with a 24" bbl in 1-14 twist shoots up to and including 60 gr bullets great. Never tried anything heavier in it,. My go to alltime bullet is 55gr sp. Love the 1-14 twist. Wallacem in Ga