If the gun won't shoot .XXX initially, it isn't going to shoot.

[dnellans]

We all do it - new barrel goes on and you head out to 100 yards to zero and shoot the first group of 3, 5, etc with a load that worked in the prior gun, is safe for a new barrel, pick your own.

Everyone loves when the first group is small and hates when its big.

Interested in hearing what people want to see out of a gun in the first 20 (just to throw a number out there) to make a decision if they're willing to invest in a finding a load for a barrel, and what their eventual expectation is after load development.

For example:

Good: I just spun a barrel on 2 days ago in 6BRA that after a single zero shot - did 4 groups of 5 in the .3's at 100 for the next 20 shots before cleaning. For me thats a great start and I would hope that with some load development I can get it into the .2's consistently (I've never had a gun that can shoot .1's but I'm a bipod and rear bag shooter, so could very well be me).

Bad: I spun up a 223 rem barrel to try and shoot 85.5 bergers. It will shoot 4 shots in .4 or .5 and then throw one out to .7-.9. Wasn't great. I've now invested hundreds of rounds, changed powders, turned necks, the whole kitchen sink. It will shoot .5's consistently but I've never shot consistent .3's with it. In hindsight I probably should have given up and made another barrel. Live and learn.

What are your experiences on starting versus finishing loads?

 

[Sandstorm]

should have given up and made another barrel. Live and learn.

This right here....I dont waste too much time anymore.
Its amazing how well most will shoot right out of the box...but when they dont they probly wont.
Its all in what your willing to live with..1 moa or .2...YMMV

 

[Matt_3479]

With the 223 being so accurate normally I would of tinkered a bit but I learned on my barrel when to call it quits. It will shoot everything from 40gr-80gr with ease in the .2’s-.3’s but when I tried to make the 70gr rdf’s work I spent pounds of powder and hundred of rounds and no matter what I did it wouldn’t shoot!

 

[Todd Earhart]

The sad part is I actually know what's its going to be early on but hold out hope that I'll find ammo\tune that will turn things to competitive. Most of the time its just going to be average at best. The good ones started good with our basic setup.
Todd

 

[Bob3700]

Once a load has been found for a particular cartridge, that load should shoot in any bbl. U screw on. If it doesn’t, u probably have a bbl. that is not worth working with. That is a broad stroke of the brush on the subject but holds true. My BRX is on its fourth bbl. and the same load shoots in all of them. Same for my 308 and my 243 SLR. I shoot HP prone , sling n irons.

 

[Sandstorm]

This is provided your working with a proven load and bullet combo.
some bullets just wont shoot in my barrel, where others excel to perfection.
With a brand new barrel I never try somethin new ...It wont tell you anything IHO.
work from history and It will talk to you. bob3700 is right on

 

[Pawnee Bill]

Put a tuner on the 223.

 

[dnellans]

No one has answered my question yet!

Where are you guys happy with a gun shooting and how much do you expect it to improve with load dev? Two numbers

 

[Longtrain]

I’ve been pretty lucky with my barrels. Some shoot right out of the box, some not so much, but fiddling with different bullets, powder, primer and seating depth, which takes time, usually resulted in something good on paper. The decision to change components is up to the shooter or spin another barrel on. I will take my time and try other options, it takes too long to buy a barrel, have it chambered and put on to see if that on performs. For those with deep pockets, have at it.
I did have a 308 FTR barrel that would not shoot to my satisfaction, at 800, it would clean the target, but I used all of the ten ring. Take that 800 group superimpose it on a 900 and 1000 yard target…you get the picture. No matter what I tried that’s the best it shot. So, off it came for another and hopefully better shooter.

 

[Sandstorm]

I dont know if were taliking comp barrels or hunting or just target shooting.
My views are biased towards the constraints i need to work in...Same bullet and brass and primer as
my last several thousand rounds and same Brux 30 inch 4 grove 7mm
It either works or it dont in this case.....and it usually does work.

 

[Beiruty]

If you pay top dollars for a custom rifle, you would expect best accuracy from the first few shots. If not, you decide.

 

[Falfan2017]

I’ve had a couple barrels I broke in with one bullet and wasn’t impressed with the first few groups then changed bullets and was quite happy with those. Also changing powder. If the barrel sucks at the beginning you may just not have a good load for it. Although I’ve never had a 6mm shooting more than .5” even with bad loads

 

[Ned Ludd]

For me, there simply are no answers to your questions. No one can know how the rifle might shoot until they've worked with it and done proper load development. Until that time, it's just a guess (or a hope), nothing more.

This notion is even more true when using a particular bullet or powder with which you have no prior experience. You have no idea how it will shoot until you do the load workup. Per your example of the .223 Rem and 85.5s, you would not be the only one that had ever struggled to get the 85.5s to shoot well. So maybe that was merely a poor choice of bullets, rather than a rifle/barrel that didn't shoot well. In such a scenario, it might be worth trying a few other .224" "heavies" such as the 90 VLD, 88 or 80 ELDM, etc. to see if that setup might come alive with a different bullet.

In the event that one is using a bullet/powder combination that they know has worked well in similar setups previously, obviously the experience should allow easier tuning in the new barrel, but even that isn't guaranteed. I've had rifles/barrels that seemed to come to life with a particular bullet/powder only after 500-700 rounds were down the barrel. I have no idea why they took so long, but I kept working with them and they eventually tuned in acceptably. In fairness, I had pretty much relegated those rifles/barrels to "practice guns", so as to keep the round counts lower on my competition rifles that were shooting really well at the time. It was only after working with the loads and shooting them for some time in that context that I realized they had started shooting much better, as I hoped they would do from the outset.

Sure, we'd all like to have quarter minute groups the first range trip or two with a new barrel, but it doesn't always happen. It's great when it does, but that's not "proof" the barrel is good. Nor is it "proof" of a bad barrel in the event it doesn't. It generally takes a lot more time and effort to conclude that a particular barrel won't perform with anything you throw at it. So in the end, one goes to whatever lengths their patience and wallet can stand. That's really all there is to it. There is no science that can predict in advance how small the initial groups should be, how much time it will take to tune a load, or anything else. Buying a quality barrel and having it chambered by a competent gunsmith is about the best you can do.

 

[PigButtons]

So I think you have your answer. The questions you are asking are not how most frame the solution space. It's more of a seat of the pants decision process. I'm not one of the beautiful people that changes barrels on my rifles, just don't shoot enough to need to (yet, you never know).

But I have rifles that have consumed hundreds of rounds before yieding a great recipe that met my expectations. I have time and patience and it's just for my casual target shooting so for me the hunt is never over. There is an infinite number of recipe combinations and theoretically every barrel has a perfect load in there somewhere. Embrace the infinite, at least until the wife gets home and there's six boxes of 1k each of different bullets that brown just dropped on the porch.

 

[Jud96]

I’m not a competitor, I’m just a precision shooting enthusiast and hunter, just to clarify. My rifles are all hunting rifles whether for varmints or deer/big game. I like to see a rifle with a random load shoot under MOA out of the gate. My last two barrels, one a .243 Win and one a 6.5 Creedmoor, the .243 shot in the .3s out the gate and the Creedmoor was under MOA for the first 20 rounds then shrunk down into the .2s and .3s with the next 30 rounds just tinkering with seating depth. I think a custom barrel shouldn’t take a ton of work to get it 1/2 MOA or less.

 

[6MMsteve]

With the 223 being so accurate normally I would of tinkered a bit but I learned on my barrel when to call it quits. It will shoot everything from 40gr-80gr with ease in the .2’s-.3’s but when I tried to make the 70gr rdf’s work I spent pounds of powder and hundred of rounds and no matter what I did it wouldn’t shoot!

I tried 105 rdf's in a 6xc bout 20 diff loads bullet depths, primers, I had a 6 dasher that would shoot anything from 90 to 110 bergers, 107 and 95 smks, 104 bib, even 105 hornies into .2, but would not shoot rdfs no better than 1.3, my 6xc would not shoot the rdfs into no more than 1.7 but will shoot everything else round .3 or better some .5 but I have never had a rdf shoot, that's why they can be found all day everyday I guess

 

[gme]

did you have a good results with the 85.5 previously? More that a few 223 Palma shooters have found that bullet to be a bit fussy, the Berger and Sierra 90's (providing the chamber and twist is appropriate) seem to be a little easier to get to shoot

 

[Matt_3479]

I tried 105 rdf's in a 6xc bout 20 diff loads bullet depths, primers, I had a 6 dasher that would shoot anything from 90 to 110 bergers, 107 and 95 smks, 104 bib, even 105 hornies into .2, but would not shoot rdfs no better than 1.3, my 6xc would not shoot the rdfs into no more than 1.7 but will shoot everything else round .3 or better some .5 but I have never had a rdf shoot, that's why they can be found all day everyday I guess

Frustrating isn’t it! Such a good looking bullet, great bc, won’t shoot worth a crap. The best I could get was .7-.8 maybe but averaged closer to 1.2-1.5 as well for me. I tried 3 powders, 3 primers, 2 different brass, jumping to jamming, over pressure to under pressure and I never could make it work!! Everything else I’ve feed it just hammers. It’s my least fussy gun eating everything I feed it with 0 load development and still getting easy .5 or better until those bloody rdf’s. After trying 10 different bullets with all under 1/2 no problem I was to stubborn to call it quits on the rdf! I was convinced I could make it work. 300 rounds later I gave up!

 

[Clancy]

I shoot my first 20 into the dirt, cleaning after the first, tenth and twentieth shots.

I do seating depth next and I’m looking for 3 shot groups under .25. If they’re much bigger than that, I’ll change something.

After tuning I expect 3 shot groups under .2 and 5 shots under .3

Everything I have is a smallish caliber and used for hunting.

 

[lb-ft]

“Where are you guys happy with a gun shooting and how much do you expect it to improve with load dev? Two numbers”

Dan Dowling 222? I can’t make a load it won’t shoot extremely well. Very little tuning to get it in the 1s & 2s consistently.

Factory 223 $219 Remington 783? Started out at .750, few dozen more rounds of tweaking load and consistent 4s & 5s achieved. A dozen more rounds to see if it had more to give. Nope. Done. And I’m happy as a clam with it.

There are two extreme ends of the spectrum.