I think my Kriger barrel is done @ 1200 rounds "UPDATE part 2"
- Thread starter diego-ted
- Start date
Re: I think my Kriger barrel is done @ 1200 rounds
There are so many items that can affect groups through a barrel's life but take heart that a Krieger barrel that length can be reset. I usually get 2 resets on a hot 22-250 1/8 kregier before retiring it after a season of 300m ISU shooting. Since heat and pressure are the usual culprits I agree with the suggestions to borescope inspect the throat. Should it be reasonable, consider the checking the bedding. On competition rifles I usually shoot calibration targets every month to monitor the accuracy and always prepare 2 barrels at a time for the season. I teach gunsmithing at a local college. Glad to share a thought...
There are so many items that can affect groups through a barrel's life but take heart that a Krieger barrel that length can be reset. I usually get 2 resets on a hot 22-250 1/8 kregier before retiring it after a season of 300m ISU shooting. Since heat and pressure are the usual culprits I agree with the suggestions to borescope inspect the throat. Should it be reasonable, consider the checking the bedding. On competition rifles I usually shoot calibration targets every month to monitor the accuracy and always prepare 2 barrels at a time for the season. I teach gunsmithing at a local college. Glad to share a thought...
Re: I think my Kriger barrel is done @ 1200 rounds "UPDATE"
I got a call from Charlie at Score High Gunsmithing and he told me looking down the tube, nothing jumped out at him as wrong. He did say there was a ton of carbon fouling but he did not indicate a “carbon ring� I told him that was funny because prior to sending him the barrel, I spent at least 4 hours attempting to get the carbon out. I told him the last two hours were heavy brushing with a bronze brush and multiple types of cleaners!
I told him up until this point I never used a brush and only cleaned with patches after every shoot, running a combination of wet and dry patches until they came out clean?
He said not using a brush is crazy, and at some point around 3-5 hundred rounds an aggressive cleaning with a bronze brush is needed?
So I am at a loss, He is going to clean the barrel for me, hopefully this will bring back the accuracy. For those who don’t remember it’s a SS 6.5X47, 30†Krieger heavy Palma tube with 1200 rounds down the pipe. Accuracy was always sub moa until she went south!
Diego
I got a call from Charlie at Score High Gunsmithing and he told me looking down the tube, nothing jumped out at him as wrong. He did say there was a ton of carbon fouling but he did not indicate a “carbon ring� I told him that was funny because prior to sending him the barrel, I spent at least 4 hours attempting to get the carbon out. I told him the last two hours were heavy brushing with a bronze brush and multiple types of cleaners!
I told him up until this point I never used a brush and only cleaned with patches after every shoot, running a combination of wet and dry patches until they came out clean?
He said not using a brush is crazy, and at some point around 3-5 hundred rounds an aggressive cleaning with a bronze brush is needed?
So I am at a loss, He is going to clean the barrel for me, hopefully this will bring back the accuracy. For those who don’t remember it’s a SS 6.5X47, 30†Krieger heavy Palma tube with 1200 rounds down the pipe. Accuracy was always sub moa until she went south!
Diego
Re: I think my Kriger barrel is done @ 1200 rounds "UPDATE"
I haven't seen many 6.5 barrels go very far past 1500 rounds and I've seen some go out at 600. The caliber seems to be a barrel burner and I don't understand why. If you get the carbon out of the barrel, check the bedding and if the bedding is good the barrel is probably toast. The next one you get may go 2,000 rounds. The big thing I see in whether a barrel is gone or not is the accuracy expectation of the shooter. Some are happy with 1 minute groups and others are not happy with 1/2 inch groups.
I haven't seen many 6.5 barrels go very far past 1500 rounds and I've seen some go out at 600. The caliber seems to be a barrel burner and I don't understand why. If you get the carbon out of the barrel, check the bedding and if the bedding is good the barrel is probably toast. The next one you get may go 2,000 rounds. The big thing I see in whether a barrel is gone or not is the accuracy expectation of the shooter. Some are happy with 1 minute groups and others are not happy with 1/2 inch groups.
Re: I think my Kriger barrel is done @ 1200 rounds "UPDATE"
"I never used a brush", and "He said not using a brush is crazy".
For all those out there who think they are getting their bores clean by using cotton patch's with liquid solvent only, think about that.
You need the mechanical, scrapping action of the bronze bristles to break the fouling lose, especially the hard, baked on carbon, the most difficult type of fouling there is to remove.
And if you think you're going to "wear out the bore" with a bronze brush, better stop firing those copper jacketed bullets down the bore at over 3000 fps (?), with burning powder temperatures of well over 2000 degrees F.
I've had to replace dozens of barrels over the years from firing, not one from wear caused by a bronze brush, but, what do I know?
"I never used a brush", and "He said not using a brush is crazy".
For all those out there who think they are getting their bores clean by using cotton patch's with liquid solvent only, think about that.
You need the mechanical, scrapping action of the bronze bristles to break the fouling lose, especially the hard, baked on carbon, the most difficult type of fouling there is to remove.
And if you think you're going to "wear out the bore" with a bronze brush, better stop firing those copper jacketed bullets down the bore at over 3000 fps (?), with burning powder temperatures of well over 2000 degrees F.
I've had to replace dozens of barrels over the years from firing, not one from wear caused by a bronze brush, but, what do I know?
Forum Boss
Administrator
Re: I think my Kriger barrel is done @ 1200 rounds "UPDATE"
With some barrels and powder choices, yes.
With other barrels, and if you use WipeOut regularly and keep oils out of the bore, the answer may not be so simple. There is some evidence that carbon problems may be related to certain solvent/lubricant residues burning off in the throat area.
Anybody is invited to come and borescope my Pac-Nor 3-groove barrel after 1000 rounds that has never seen a brush. No carbon issue... Shoots like it was new.
Is that exceptional? Probably. But my point is that you're wise to investigate various cleaning regimens for different barrels. Find the best "minimally invasive" solution that suits your needs. I have generally found that barrels which shoot really really great right from the start often do well with minimalist cleaning approaches.
I'm NOT saying don't brush. I AM saying you shouldn't assume that every barrel needs 10 back/forth strokes with a bronze brush every 25 rounds.
Also IMHO you just might encounter fewer carbon problems if you keep the oily stuff out of your bore and soak regularly with Wipe-Out. No guarantees mind you ... but you might want to try it.
fdshuster said:
With some barrels and powder choices, yes.
With other barrels, and if you use WipeOut regularly and keep oils out of the bore, the answer may not be so simple. There is some evidence that carbon problems may be related to certain solvent/lubricant residues burning off in the throat area.
Anybody is invited to come and borescope my Pac-Nor 3-groove barrel after 1000 rounds that has never seen a brush. No carbon issue... Shoots like it was new.
Is that exceptional? Probably. But my point is that you're wise to investigate various cleaning regimens for different barrels. Find the best "minimally invasive" solution that suits your needs. I have generally found that barrels which shoot really really great right from the start often do well with minimalist cleaning approaches.
I'm NOT saying don't brush. I AM saying you shouldn't assume that every barrel needs 10 back/forth strokes with a bronze brush every 25 rounds.
Also IMHO you just might encounter fewer carbon problems if you keep the oily stuff out of your bore and soak regularly with Wipe-Out. No guarantees mind you ... but you might want to try it.
Re: I think my Kriger barrel is done @ 1200 rounds "UPDATE"
Put some JB bore paste through that puppy. Run a patch with Kroil on it, run it through the barrel,then take a .224 brush (or 6mm) and wrap a patch around it, put some JB on the patch and short stroke the barrel about 20 times. Kroil a patch to clean it, pull a nylon brush form muzzle to chamber until you feel a tight spot (you may not after you JB'd it) but if you feel that tight spot, that is where you need to scrub some more.
Gary
Put some JB bore paste through that puppy. Run a patch with Kroil on it, run it through the barrel,then take a .224 brush (or 6mm) and wrap a patch around it, put some JB on the patch and short stroke the barrel about 20 times. Kroil a patch to clean it, pull a nylon brush form muzzle to chamber until you feel a tight spot (you may not after you JB'd it) but if you feel that tight spot, that is where you need to scrub some more.
Gary
Re: I think my Kriger barrel is done @ 1200 rounds "UPDATE"
Diago
I think he found your problem. The cleaning regiment your using wasnt quite doing the job. Might have been getting most of it out, butt possably leaving a light layer time and time again till it got to the point it is now.
I agree with Dubya. Not every time but every 200 to 500 rounds a good JB SCUBBIN willhelp you maintain a good clean bore that will continue to shoot X's till its toast. I find that the older the barrel is in round count, the more often I need to do this.
I cant say I agree with Frank about using the bronze brush ( certainly no disrespect sir) and the mechanical action of its use. I am one of the cotton patch and Brass jag guys with no problems... And why? Because I purchased a Hawkee Bore scope in 2005 and have been using it ever since. I know when its clean now. No guessing.
That first year I tested about every bore solvent I could get my hands on. The first one to BITE the dust was Hoppee's #9 its about bottom of MY list for effective bore solvent. Love the smell and brings alot of memories from my Late Father but thats about it.
I use Bore tech Eliminator pretty much exclusively with fantastic results and no pungent odor. Which is important to me cleaning rifles in a hotel room on the road.
Even if you keep doing what your doing and just add the JB every now and then I think you will be OK.
I know this may hurt your pride a little as I know each and everyone of us would like to think we are taking the very best of care for our equipment. I ussually have to prove it to myself and not take others opinions,...just use them as a guide to improve what Im want to accomplish. I like to tell other shooters..." give it a try if it does not work for you... you can always go back to the way you where doing it" My way isnt the THE way just A WAY"
Hope she shoots for ya.
RT
Diago
I think he found your problem. The cleaning regiment your using wasnt quite doing the job. Might have been getting most of it out, butt possably leaving a light layer time and time again till it got to the point it is now.
I agree with Dubya. Not every time but every 200 to 500 rounds a good JB SCUBBIN willhelp you maintain a good clean bore that will continue to shoot X's till its toast. I find that the older the barrel is in round count, the more often I need to do this.
I cant say I agree with Frank about using the bronze brush ( certainly no disrespect sir) and the mechanical action of its use. I am one of the cotton patch and Brass jag guys with no problems... And why? Because I purchased a Hawkee Bore scope in 2005 and have been using it ever since. I know when its clean now. No guessing.
That first year I tested about every bore solvent I could get my hands on. The first one to BITE the dust was Hoppee's #9 its about bottom of MY list for effective bore solvent. Love the smell and brings alot of memories from my Late Father but thats about it.
I use Bore tech Eliminator pretty much exclusively with fantastic results and no pungent odor. Which is important to me cleaning rifles in a hotel room on the road.
Even if you keep doing what your doing and just add the JB every now and then I think you will be OK.
I know this may hurt your pride a little as I know each and everyone of us would like to think we are taking the very best of care for our equipment. I ussually have to prove it to myself and not take others opinions,...just use them as a guide to improve what Im want to accomplish. I like to tell other shooters..." give it a try if it does not work for you... you can always go back to the way you where doing it" My way isnt the THE way just A WAY"
Hope she shoots for ya.
RT
Re: I think my Kriger barrel is done @ 1200 rounds "UPDATE"
I think that Russ just gave you some great advise. At least I would give it a try and see what you come up with.
I think that Russ just gave you some great advise. At least I would give it a try and see what you come up with.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Re: I think my Kriger barrel is done @ 1200 rounds "UPDATE"
I would add one thing. Unless you have a bore scope, if you take a minimalist approach to cleaning, depending on the barrel, caliber, powder used, and number of shots between cleaning, you are very likely to end up with a similar problem to what you currently are experiencing, particularly with the powder that you are using.
I have one barrel that is worn out, (and several others that are in various stages of wear) or I should say burned out. Before it was retired to fire forming duty (6PPC) it shot very well, but the throat had become alligatored to the point that it would pick up fouling too rapidly to be worth dealing with for serious match work. The last group that it shot before being retired was, I believe a .295 at 200 yards, which won the individual match (as opposed to an agg.) that it was shot in. The one thing that had been done that probably helped to prolong the life of the barrel was to recrown it when a tuner was fitted. I think that anyone that is serious about accuracy should probably have his crowns touched up every 3-400 rounds. My point is that barrels do not so much wear out, as burn out, and that I find no convincing evidence that proper use of bronze brushes shortens the accurate life of barrels. I do find considerable evidence that bad rod technique, combined with inadequately designed rod guides make it highly likely that regular use of abrasives can create undesirable asymmetrical wear in a chamber's throat.
This is not to say that I do not use abrasives. I do, infrequently, and very carefully, with a better rod guide than 99% of the shooters that I have seen (except for benchrest competitors, where the percentage would be about 50) and very careful technique.
I have read the discussions about the evils of bronze brushes, and for that matter, drawing them back through the barrel, instead to removing them at the muzzle at the end of every down barrel stroke. I am not convinced that there is anything to it. Barrels wear out if you shoot them. As one fellow so succinctly put it, that is why they are threaded.
Come to a short range centerfire benchrest match some time, a sanctioned one, with top level competitors, and look at how they clean.
I would add one thing. Unless you have a bore scope, if you take a minimalist approach to cleaning, depending on the barrel, caliber, powder used, and number of shots between cleaning, you are very likely to end up with a similar problem to what you currently are experiencing, particularly with the powder that you are using.
I have one barrel that is worn out, (and several others that are in various stages of wear) or I should say burned out. Before it was retired to fire forming duty (6PPC) it shot very well, but the throat had become alligatored to the point that it would pick up fouling too rapidly to be worth dealing with for serious match work. The last group that it shot before being retired was, I believe a .295 at 200 yards, which won the individual match (as opposed to an agg.) that it was shot in. The one thing that had been done that probably helped to prolong the life of the barrel was to recrown it when a tuner was fitted. I think that anyone that is serious about accuracy should probably have his crowns touched up every 3-400 rounds. My point is that barrels do not so much wear out, as burn out, and that I find no convincing evidence that proper use of bronze brushes shortens the accurate life of barrels. I do find considerable evidence that bad rod technique, combined with inadequately designed rod guides make it highly likely that regular use of abrasives can create undesirable asymmetrical wear in a chamber's throat.
This is not to say that I do not use abrasives. I do, infrequently, and very carefully, with a better rod guide than 99% of the shooters that I have seen (except for benchrest competitors, where the percentage would be about 50) and very careful technique.
I have read the discussions about the evils of bronze brushes, and for that matter, drawing them back through the barrel, instead to removing them at the muzzle at the end of every down barrel stroke. I am not convinced that there is anything to it. Barrels wear out if you shoot them. As one fellow so succinctly put it, that is why they are threaded.
Come to a short range centerfire benchrest match some time, a sanctioned one, with top level competitors, and look at how they clean.
Re: I think my Kriger barrel is done @ 1200 rounds "UPDATE"
Funny you mention crown issues. Anyone remember the Precision Shooting article where they took a file to the crown, then kept messing up the crown, then backbored it with a hand drill. Surprising results!
I do not shoot benchrest or flatbased bullets but I believe personally that accuracy starts in the throat and crown has less influence than than we percieve it to have.
Just my two cents.
Funny you mention crown issues. Anyone remember the Precision Shooting article where they took a file to the crown, then kept messing up the crown, then backbored it with a hand drill. Surprising results!
I do not shoot benchrest or flatbased bullets but I believe personally that accuracy starts in the throat and crown has less influence than than we percieve it to have.
Just my two cents.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Re: I think my Kriger barrel is done @ 1200 rounds "UPDATE"
I have shot benchrest, and do shoot flat base match grade bullets in a 6PPC that is typical of those shot in matches, and the recrowning did make a difference, slight, but a difference. If the test did not start with a rifle that would consistently shoot in the low .2s and better through an agg. shot in mild conditions, what was demonstrated may only have applied to a lower standard of accuracy. At the current competitive level of accuracy, EVERY part of the barrel, front, back and middle, needs to be pretty much perfect.
I have shot benchrest, and do shoot flat base match grade bullets in a 6PPC that is typical of those shot in matches, and the recrowning did make a difference, slight, but a difference. If the test did not start with a rifle that would consistently shoot in the low .2s and better through an agg. shot in mild conditions, what was demonstrated may only have applied to a lower standard of accuracy. At the current competitive level of accuracy, EVERY part of the barrel, front, back and middle, needs to be pretty much perfect.
Re: I think my Kriger barrel is done @ 1200 rounds "UPDATE"
Just picked up another 6mm Krieger barrel blank, (I buy mostly Kriegers, only a few Bartlein's mainly because they are hard to get), and again read the break-in and cleaning recommendations included with the barrel, mainly to be sure nothing has "changed". Then paid another visit to their website.
Info with the barrel, regarding abrasive cleaners (like JB, my favorite): "They clean by mechanically removing the fouling. Both are good, and we feel that neither will damage the bore when used properly".
From their website, related to brushes: "and good quality properly sized nylon or bronze brushes'".
Krieger knows a helluva more about rifle barrels (especially theirs) than I do, so I will continue to follow their advice.
Not trying to convince anyone to : "do it my way", just presenting another viewpoint, backed up with expert advice by one of the premier barrel makers.
diego: Since your barrel is a Krieger if you have not already done so, you may find it interesting & informative to check-out this source, right from the horses mouth.
Just picked up another 6mm Krieger barrel blank, (I buy mostly Kriegers, only a few Bartlein's mainly because they are hard to get), and again read the break-in and cleaning recommendations included with the barrel, mainly to be sure nothing has "changed". Then paid another visit to their website.
Info with the barrel, regarding abrasive cleaners (like JB, my favorite): "They clean by mechanically removing the fouling. Both are good, and we feel that neither will damage the bore when used properly".
From their website, related to brushes: "and good quality properly sized nylon or bronze brushes'".
Krieger knows a helluva more about rifle barrels (especially theirs) than I do, so I will continue to follow their advice.
Not trying to convince anyone to : "do it my way", just presenting another viewpoint, backed up with expert advice by one of the premier barrel makers.
diego: Since your barrel is a Krieger if you have not already done so, you may find it interesting & informative to check-out this source, right from the horses mouth.
Re: I think my Kriger barrel is done @ 1200 rounds "UPDATE"
Thanks for all the input guys. I will see what shakes when I get the tube back from Score High. I will definitly use a better solvent and a brush when needed. I have to go though all my other rifles, because I used the same cleaning method on all of them.
thx again
Diego
Thanks for all the input guys. I will see what shakes when I get the tube back from Score High. I will definitly use a better solvent and a brush when needed. I have to go though all my other rifles, because I used the same cleaning method on all of them.
thx again
Diego
Re: I think my Kriger barrel is done @ 1200 rounds "UPDATE"
Hi Ted...good to haer that you are getting your cleaning regimen figgerd out,,,,like sugested earlier ...go to a NBRSA or IBS event and watch how they clean their bbls..!!! ....they use a bronze brush as needed "EVERY TIME" they clean....we learn every day,,,Roger
PS,,HAPPY THANKSGIVING.....
Hi Ted...good to haer that you are getting your cleaning regimen figgerd out,,,,like sugested earlier ...go to a NBRSA or IBS event and watch how they clean their bbls..!!! ....they use a bronze brush as needed "EVERY TIME" they clean....we learn every day,,,Roger
PS,,HAPPY THANKSGIVING.....
Well, I got the barrel back from Charlie at Score High, he said there was a LOT of carbon in the grooves!, that took him a while to get out. He said he did not find anything else really wrong, a little wear in the chamber but not nearly bad enough to set the chamber back or anything. He said to go out and shoot it. I wil put the rifle back togeather this week and load some development rounds this week. I will let you know after the next weekend where I stand.
again thanks for all the help and advice.
Diego
again thanks for all the help and advice.
Diego
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