Hybrid CNC/Manual Lathe

[SKWERLZ]

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We have a few older hardinge CNC lathes here at work
It’s an old operating system on all of them but my yearly project for 2025 it to learn it.

 

[urbanrifleman]

A $350 chamber job in 2 hours is $175 an hour.

I mean that cool if you can do one in 15 minutes. Seriously. That's really cool. But you better have stacks of barrels to do every day to justify $30k-$40k for a lathe.

Most people are chambering a barrel a month. Or maybe one a week. The return on investment is 100 years.

 

[LVLAaron]

More like 200/hr - It makes up for the "little things" like stock work that has negative margin, like the 30 minutes it takes to crack a stock 700 barrel off, etc.

Not my thread... but I'd love to have something like a TL1640 set up solely for chambering.

 

[DaveTooley]

More like 200/hr - It makes up for the "little things" like stock work that has negative margin, like the 30 minutes it takes to crack a stock 700 barrel off, etc.

Not my thread... but I'd love to have something like a TL1640 set up solely for chambering.

Yep A complete rifle is much more than the sum of the individual operations. I add things up then add a MISC. charge based on the complexity of the project. When using factory actions there's no way to know how many hours will be required doing the final assembly and get everything right.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Thats a fact. Even with the best parts. A good rifle build is a lot more than a chamber and bedding job. A little off topic, but so many guys go to chambering classes and it seems like its the only part of building a rifle. Chambering is important. But its actually simple stuff compared to a really good bedding job. There should be a lot more talk and guys going to classes for the inlet and bedding in my opinion. I think most guys know its not too hard to find someone to barrel an action but its not as easy to find someone to do a quality job inletting and bedding. Thats where the need in the market is. Of course prices will have to go up to get guys to want go into that work. And the most important part in my opinion is the action.

 

[Jud96]

I appreciate everyone’s insight. I’m starting to lean towards just going with a nice manual machine. The price of the Prototrak lathe is about 2-3x the price of a manual lathe from Sharp, Harrison, Clausing, etc. I love the idea of speeding up the chambering process, I’m all about efficiency and time savings, but I’m not sure how much it would realistically benefit me. Chambering barrels for myself and close friends would be a dozen or less barrels a year. So saving the time now isn’t a deal breaker. I was more or less planning for the future and how the CNC could save me time and possibly be used for other operations. My goal eventually is to have a nice hobby shop with a CNC turret lathe and CNC vertical mill for making my reamer stops and other products and a lathe and mill for gunsmithing. I didn’t want to buy a CNC and be handicapped by not having a manual, but I didn’t want to buy a nice manual and later on decide I want a CNC like the TL-1 or Prototrak.

 

[Walt Krafft]

I will throw this out. To get really good at programing and running a cnc machine, either lathe or mill, you will need to do it a lot, and frequently. Your new machine just arrived and you are going to program and chamber your first barrel. It will take you a couple of days. If you wait couple of weeks to do another you will forget half what you learned. If you can spend 8 hrs per day everyday for a couple of months running the machine you will get pretty good at it. Leave it for a couple of months and you will start loosing proficency. If you have both a lathe and a mill they better have the same control. IMO cnc machines are not really suited for hobby shops.

 

[Jud96]

I will throw this out. To get really good at programing and running a cnc machine, either lathe or mill, you will need to do it a lot, and frequently. Your new machine just arrived and you are going to program and chamber your first barrel. It will take you a couple of days. If you wait couple of weeks to do another you will forget half what you learned. If you can spend 8 hrs per day everyday for a couple of months running the machine you will get pretty good at it. Leave it for a couple of months and you will start loosing proficency. If you have both a lathe and a mill they better have the same control. IMO cnc machines are not really suited for hobby shops.

I’m a machinist by trade and run and program CNCs everyday, it’s a non issue for me. I was wanting to go this route to save myself time and be more productive, but I’m considering just getting a manual lathe for chambering.

 

[338 Mollett]

I'm a short drive from owensboro

It usually takes me 3 hours start to finish, including threads for a tuner, polishing, and reassembly. That includes a break, probably 2 incoming phone calls, and letting my dog in and out of the shop 427 times.

I gotta have a watch repaired up there one day . I have to dig around for an old barrel or you can let me know when your doing a barrel ,shoot me a PM with your address so I can drop by .

 

[Kracken McGraw]

I’m a machinist by trade and run and program CNCs everyday, it’s a non issue for me. I was wanting to go this route to save myself time and be more productive, but I’m considering just getting a manual lathe for chambering.

If that’s the case then, I wouldn’t talk myself out of it.

 

[WSnyder]

I’m a machinist by trade and run and program CNCs everyday, it’s a non issue for me. I was wanting to go this route to save myself time and be more productive, but I’m considering just getting a manual lathe for chambering.

Here's a thought and something I wished I had acted on earlier in my younger life when the door was wide open. There are several guys that started out with manual equipment doing precision rifle gunsmithing and took the plunge with CNC. The three that I'm thinking of at the moment are wildly successful with one running a huge complex with a zillion products. Never know if you don't try.

 

[LVLAaron]

Thats a fact. Even with the best parts. A good rifle build is a lot more than a chamber and bedding job. A little off topic, but so many guys go to chambering classes and it seems like its the only part of building a rifle. Chambering is important. But its actually simple stuff compared to a really good bedding job. There should be a lot more talk and guys going to classes for the inlet and bedding in my opinion. I think most guys know its not too hard to find someone to barrel an action but its not as easy to find someone to do a quality job inletting and bedding. Thats where the need in the market is. Of course prices will have to go up to get guys to want go into that work. And the most important part in my opinion is the action.

Agree. Looking back the 5 years I've been at this... The stock work is much more meticulous work; and there's not a lot of good info out there. A lot of info, but I wouldn't say any of it is fantastic.

 

[jmoose]

I’m a machinist by trade and run and program CNCs everyday, it’s a non issue for me. I was wanting to go this route to save myself time and be more productive, but I’m considering just getting a manual lathe for chambering.

I'm more a jet engine guy than a gunsmith, but It occurs to me that spending so much time getting the barrel indicated is more a tooling drama than a machine problem. A manual lathe with a cathead on one end of the spindle and a good "Adjust Tru" (Buck Chuck) six jaw chuck on the other, with indicator assemblies mounted on both ends, should get you ready to cut in 15-30 minutes at most. I generally keep two indicator bases set up when dealing with run outs less than 0.001" on small machines. One with about 0.030" travel and 0.0005" divisions and the other is just for dealing with getting rid of the last few 0.0001"s. (On big machines I start with a 1" travel indicator, but that shouldn't apply here...) Depending on the chuck, it's sometimes easier and quicker to mount the chuck on a faceplate and let your heavy plastic faced hammer drift the chuck on the faceplate those last few tenths. (If I can bump a nine foot long, 10"+ diameter on one end, shaft within 0.0001" or two runout in less than hour, then you can imagine the joy and speed in doing the occasional rebarrel in my friend's shop!)

CNC won't help a bit for dialing in. Running flush coolant and rapid traverse, yes. But that's not where you save time on jobs like this.

 

[urbanrifleman]

I’m a machinist by trade and run and program CNCs everyday, it’s a non issue for me. I was wanting to go this route to save myself time and be more productive, but I’m considering just getting a manual lathe for chambering.

You'll find people are very good at telling you how to spend your money.

Keep your eyes out for machines becoming available from guys that went and spent 500k on machines to do "production" on barrels, only to go belly up.

There are a lot of hobbyists in this trade. They buy equipment they could never pay for. Some people are using barrel work as a tax write off for their other businesses.

 

[Tucker65]

I've never seen a Haas TL1 or TL2 lathe in person. Are the guys using them for chambering using a True Bore chuck system on them and just letting the muzzle end of the barrel do its thing on the other end. Or is the headstock short enough on the lathe to use a regular 4 jaw chuck and outboard spider?

 

[xr650rRider]

A TL1 in use

 

[806guns]

A TL1 in use

I bought a barrel from him and he sent me a video of the run out. Very impressive!

 

[Brass Case]

I appreciate everyone’s insight. I’m starting to lean towards just going with a nice manual machine. The price of the Prototrak lathe is about 2-3x the price of a manual lathe from Sharp, Harrison, Clausing, etc. I love the idea of speeding up the chambering process, I’m all about efficiency and time savings, but I’m not sure how much it would realistically benefit me. Chambering barrels for myself and close friends would be a dozen or less barrels a year. So saving the time now isn’t a deal breaker. I was more or less planning for the future and how the CNC could save me time and possibly be used for other operations. My goal eventually is to have a nice hobby shop with a CNC turret lathe and CNC vertical mill for making my reamer stops and other products and a lathe and mill for gunsmithing. I didn’t want to buy a CNC and be handicapped by not having a manual, but I didn’t want to buy a nice manual and later on decide I want a CNC like the TL-1 or Prototrak.

I purchased a used Prototrak 1630 a couple of years ago, to accomplish all the things you describe above. It's a wonderful machine, very heavy duty. Certainly a tool that is capable of running 5 days a week. The manual controls function just like a manual lathe and I would argue you still maintain plenty of "feel". I chamber barrels using a hybrid style: Cut and thread the tenon and pre-bore with CNC, use the tail stock to ream the chamber. The only two downsides of the machine that I have found are:

1. The 1630 headstock is so large, the shortest barrel I can chamber is 26". I have a spider on the back of the tailstock and a spider on the front. I purchased a TBAS and chuck, thinking that this would overcome the length issues. However, this hasn't worked out the way I would like. You can't support the muzzle end of the barrel when it is buried in the headstock of the lathe, which then means you have to come up with muzzle extenders, which end up becoming more work than than it's worth.

2. It's difficult to pick up existing threads. I'm not saying it's impossible, as the machines have a function called thread-repair which can be used. I'm just not very good at it.

All that said, I love the machine. Southwest Industries is a solid company that supports their products very well. They actually manufacture most of their own electronics and circuit boards in the USA. I've been up to their manufacturing and assembly area in LA, very impressive. Also another reason I had no issues buying a used machine. Hope this helps....

 

[Jud96]

I purchased a used Prototrak 1630 a couple of years ago, to accomplish all the things you describe above. It's a wonderful machine, very heavy duty. Certainly a tool that is capable of running 5 days a week. The manual controls function just like a manual lathe and I would argue you still maintain plenty of "feel". I chamber barrels using a hybrid style: Cut and thread the tenon and pre-bore with CNC, use the tail stock to ream the chamber. The only two downsides of the machine that I have found are:

1. The 1630 headstock is so large, the shortest barrel I can chamber is 26". I have a spider on the back of the tailstock and a spider on the front. I purchased a TBAS and chuck, thinking that this would overcome the length issues. However, this hasn't worked out the way I would like. You can't support the muzzle end of the barrel when it is buried in the headstock of the lathe, which then means you have to come up with muzzle extenders, which end up becoming more work than than it's worth.

2. It's difficult to pick up existing threads. I'm not saying it's impossible, as the machines have a function called thread-repair which can be used. I'm just not very good at it.

All that said, I love the machine. Southwest Industries is a solid company that supports their products very well. They actually manufacture most of their own electronics and circuit boards in the USA. I've been up to their manufacturing and assembly area in LA, very impressive. Also another reason I had no issues buying a used machine. Hope this helps....

This is very helpful information. Thank you!

 

[Sniperhandle]

You'll find people are very good at telling you how to spend your money.

Keep your eyes out for machines becoming available from guys that went and spent 500k on machines to do "production" on barrels, only to go belly up.

There are a lot of hobbyists in this trade. They buy equipment they could never pay for. Some people are using barrel work as a tax write off for their other businesses.

Dave Tooley uses a CNC, A Haas TL1 I believe, If he had it to do over again, I bet he wouldn't bat an eye, He has done thousands of barrels.