Can anyone point me in the direction to find out how this is done? I’m familiar with the concept. I hear it can have a dramatic impact on accuracy. I have seen how to do it with trigger hangers from some manufacturers. And it seems like it’s done on a BnA trigger with the adjustable sear. How do I know if my trigger is timed or not? I shoot defiance deviant and jewel and trigger tech. I’ve read thru posts here and did not see a specific how to. TIA.
How to time a trigger
- Thread starter AndrewS
- Start date
So does that mean it won’t work with a defiance since the trigger pins can’t be moved forward or back?
Terry
Gold $$ Contributor
No, you can use it. You just can't move it.
X-Caveman
Gold $$ Contributor
There’s a lot to proper ignition timing. Moving a trigger back & forth may help, or hurt (if it sacrifices pin fall for feel). If I were you, I would measure the pin fall 1st. Then determine if it’s cocking or de-cocking on close (and by how much). Then call a competent smith and tell him your situation. Going at it alone can be frustrating. Been there, done that.
Alex can do it, though he may advise you against it if the action will need serious work. If you’re using a defiance that should not be an issue. I would call him and talk with him about it.
it should not increase accuracy as long as you have proper firing pin fall at this point, what it will do is decrease closing difficulty and make the action more enjoyable to operate (in my opinion)
Unfortunately there are smiths out there that will take the job and just file the cocking piece with disregard to firing pin fall. I would much rather have an action that had a hitch in its giddyup than an action with poor ignition energy.
it should not increase accuracy as long as you have proper firing pin fall at this point, what it will do is decrease closing difficulty and make the action more enjoyable to operate (in my opinion)
Unfortunately there are smiths out there that will take the job and just file the cocking piece with disregard to firing pin fall. I would much rather have an action that had a hitch in its giddyup than an action with poor ignition energy.
When it comes to an LR BR rifle, anything that increases smoothness of operation and allows faster shot strings with less upset improves accuracy. That is unless firing pin fall is lessened to the point where ignition is no longer reliable.
We can often get very close to optimum with an adjustable trigger hanger. When we can't eliminate cock-on-close and still have adequate firing pin fall, we call @Alex Wheeler .
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
Like others have said, on some actions its as simple as swapping trigger hangers. On others its major surgery to do it right. Timing by itself does not effect raw accuracy. However the smoother cycling does certainly help you shoot faster and smoother which does usually result in better groups. Tuning the ignition and what is commonly referred to as blueprinting the ignition, does have an effect on raw accuracy. Defiance actually does a pretty good job on their ignition. If you do not feel like the closing cycle is disrupting you, timing wont help you. Most of the gains come from the blueprinting/tuning side of a good timing job.
my Farley has really short pin fall and I need to get it reworked as I really believe it costs me some points
Pete Wass
Gold $$ Contributor
From what I have gleaned, .250" of pin fall is desirable for great ignition. I have a Rem 700 action I have been playing with for the past few years and have filed the cocking piece until there is little, if any cocking on closing and it seems to shoot well enough. I also polished the cocking cam some and diminished the notch that holds the pin. I think I have around .210" of pin fall currently. The Borden I have is a pleasure to cycle. It has no cock on closing that I can discern. The Kodiak I have, I cut some of the cock on closing out of it and it too seems to shoot just fine.
I also think I have gleaned that the angle of the cocking cam is an area that allows for easier bolt lift and handling. In Erik Cortina's interview with Jim Borden there was a lot of discussion on this subject. Well worth the two hours to watch it on Youtube. The whole issue of bolt timing has seemed a "Black Hole" for a long time, to me at least. I would say the cocking cam angle is the hardest part to do anything about to a rifle in hand or a bolt in hand. I recently attended a two day study on Action Blueprinting that shed a bit more light on the subject. It isn't a Black Hole and isn't all that difficult to understand once immersed in it. Some think adding weight to the pin is a way to get better ignition. Benchresters don't so mush need fast lock time as they need a good primer strike, like .20 few thou of primer dent.
I also think I have gleaned that the angle of the cocking cam is an area that allows for easier bolt lift and handling. In Erik Cortina's interview with Jim Borden there was a lot of discussion on this subject. Well worth the two hours to watch it on Youtube. The whole issue of bolt timing has seemed a "Black Hole" for a long time, to me at least. I would say the cocking cam angle is the hardest part to do anything about to a rifle in hand or a bolt in hand. I recently attended a two day study on Action Blueprinting that shed a bit more light on the subject. It isn't a Black Hole and isn't all that difficult to understand once immersed in it. Some think adding weight to the pin is a way to get better ignition. Benchresters don't so mush need fast lock time as they need a good primer strike, like .20 few thou of primer dent.
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BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
I am not challenging the wisdom of my betters at all, but offer this as a reporter.
I have an early Stiller Viper. With a Jewel trigger that I do not think was one of the ones with a short sear, it came with no cock on close and .200 fall, and a spring that had bee somewhat crudely trimmed to a cocked weight of 19#. Barreled as a 6PPC, with no more than .001 bump from a tight case using 205s I saw no signs of ignition problems, I should mention that this action has a .062 FP tip, which I believe contributes to the fall and weight working. Some time later, Jerry strongly suggested that I reverse the trigger bracket, which required a small amount of work, and which increased the pin fall to .220, and gave me .020 of cock on close. When I operate the bolt rapidly, I cannot feel the cock on close. Jerry Hensler worked with Jerry Stiller when they were testing the ignition of pre production Vipers. There were using an Oehler 4e in combination with a strain gauge on the barrel to look for irregularities in the pressure rise curve with increasingly lighter FP springs. He told me that they went all the way down to 14# and never saw any issues. None of this is me disagreeing with those who have lots more experience than I do, just me reporting. On pin weight: At one time Greg Tannel offered an aluminum shafted FP for the Vipers. At the time the usual wisdom was that a slightly heavier spring was required for light pins to avoid problems with vertical. I installed it wiht a regular 700 SA spring and it worked fine, and produced less reticle movement on target when dry firing on an empty chamber. Eventually I went back to the stock steel pin, for no particular reason. Then at some point I must have revisited the light pin, and forgotten that is was in the bolt. Sometime after that I had the bolt apart and noticed the light pin. When I took the FP assembly apart to put the stock pin back, I noticed that I had accidentally been using the 19# spring, with no apparent ill effect. I believe that the smaller pin tip requires less spring weight and pin mass, but that is just a working premise. I have no actual proof, except my own experiences.
I have an early Stiller Viper. With a Jewel trigger that I do not think was one of the ones with a short sear, it came with no cock on close and .200 fall, and a spring that had bee somewhat crudely trimmed to a cocked weight of 19#. Barreled as a 6PPC, with no more than .001 bump from a tight case using 205s I saw no signs of ignition problems, I should mention that this action has a .062 FP tip, which I believe contributes to the fall and weight working. Some time later, Jerry strongly suggested that I reverse the trigger bracket, which required a small amount of work, and which increased the pin fall to .220, and gave me .020 of cock on close. When I operate the bolt rapidly, I cannot feel the cock on close. Jerry Hensler worked with Jerry Stiller when they were testing the ignition of pre production Vipers. There were using an Oehler 4e in combination with a strain gauge on the barrel to look for irregularities in the pressure rise curve with increasingly lighter FP springs. He told me that they went all the way down to 14# and never saw any issues. None of this is me disagreeing with those who have lots more experience than I do, just me reporting. On pin weight: At one time Greg Tannel offered an aluminum shafted FP for the Vipers. At the time the usual wisdom was that a slightly heavier spring was required for light pins to avoid problems with vertical. I installed it wiht a regular 700 SA spring and it worked fine, and produced less reticle movement on target when dry firing on an empty chamber. Eventually I went back to the stock steel pin, for no particular reason. Then at some point I must have revisited the light pin, and forgotten that is was in the bolt. Sometime after that I had the bolt apart and noticed the light pin. When I took the FP assembly apart to put the stock pin back, I noticed that I had accidentally been using the 19# spring, with no apparent ill effect. I believe that the smaller pin tip requires less spring weight and pin mass, but that is just a working premise. I have no actual proof, except my own experiences.
WSnyder
Silver $$ Contributor
FYI The OP was referencing a BnA trigger that does have a top sear that has two positions in which you can alter pin fall (“trigger timing”).
“Notably, the upgraded sear insert at the top of the trigger offers minor timing adjustments, adapting to changes in firing pin fall.”
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This may ruffle some feathers but a lot of people won’t notice.
Is 0.200 to 0.220 fall enough, I don’t think so. Can it win? (Yes it can at times) Does it shoot (Yes it can at times)
Does the primer go bang? (Yes it does)
Because it goes bang do you have ideal ignition? (I don’t think so and there are many that agree)
But when ignition is right (in my case 0.250+ pin fall) I can assure you that you will sit up and take notice.
Here is my example.
BAT DS which I can shoot pretty good at times. Had all the mods required to get at least 0.250” fall. (It’s no secret)
First match I used the modified DS, I shot a teen Agg at 200yds in ordinary conditions. (First time ever in 20yrs)
Second outing shot my smallest Agg at 100yds in 20+ years
So I took notice and I am a believer.
I of course I don’t win everything but it’s not because of ignition that’s for sure. To give you an idea, my setup hits the primer 25% harder than standard impact energy.
Will never own an action without the primer being hit hard enough ever again.
I make my own BAT DS pins (0.280 size) and use a 24lb spring (pictured below)
jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
Nice work.
What material do you use to make the firing pin.?
Several Years ago, I got so aggravated with my Bat M action spitting shots that I converted it to a screw in shroud. A lot as involved, but That cured the problem. I used a Grade 8 bolt as a material source.
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Ledd Slinger
Silver $$ Contributor
For me, timing a trigger is about the feel. I hate "cock on close" when chambering a round. I have a method for timing 700 style bolts while maintaining good pin fall but it's not something I would recommend trying without seeing in person to fully understand the mechanics of timing and how it's effected by different parts. Also I wouldn't attempt that job without a good milling machine.
So many variables in accuracy, but timing isn't really one of them. Amount of fp fall, fp spring weights, fp protrusion...yes on accuracy effects. Timing the trigger to eliminate cock on close, not so much.
So many variables in accuracy, but timing isn't really one of them. Amount of fp fall, fp spring weights, fp protrusion...yes on accuracy effects. Timing the trigger to eliminate cock on close, not so much.
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