How to reload

[jim_k]

Do you anneal your brass at some point, or ever?

I have not annealed, and do not have space or enough spare money to do it. My understanding is that it improves consistency of bullet release from the case neck. I would like to see on-target testing, preferably with ES and SD data, comparing annealing to not annealing. I suspect that annealing improves group size. Hmm, that may be something I don't know, in response to those who focus on the scope of my knowledge, as opposed to evaluating the validity of what I posted. I obviously do not know it all, since I cannot answer that question. I have a friend who does commercial precision reloading; but he does not anneal. Maybe he can get an AMP annealer, and we can use his LabRadar to generate some good data, and actually find the answer to the question.
Thanks, tominboise! Now I have a burning question, and a plan for another project that I can do and report back on. This could be good.

 

[jim_k]

In a sport as complex as ours, I can't help but be put off when someone says something like "I really know it all" as a prelude to telling us the "right" way to do something - let alone everything. I didn't get the impression that was said tongue-in-cheek in the least, especially having read the OP follow up posts.

I figured out a while ago, that there are many "right" ways to do almost everything associated with handloading, with some probably better than others. I agree with 358WCF, that much of what is discussed on this forum, is not applicable to the beginning handloader. Today I am loading far more consistent ammo than I was 5 years ago and back then I thought it was pretty good. But by having taken advantage of the vast and varied knowledge available on this forum, my processes have evolved into what they are today.

Frankly, I hope I never "really know it all".

One of the best vacations we ever took was to Traverse City. The golf course at the resort was the only Jack Nicklaus course I ever saw that was public, and I enjoyed spraying golf balls all over the place. Then we ate so many cherries our skin changed color. I have a new neighbor who went to the university in Duluth IIRC, and he said you could go to classes in your shorts during a snowstorm, because of a network of underground walkways. Now that's neat! My passport does not permit me to leave Texas any more, so those will only be vicarious pleasures in the future.

 

[jim_k]

Let's star with case prep for the novice hand loader that will primarily load for factory rifles with nothing more than a floated barrel and bedded stock. Would you consider neck reaming once fired brass to be an important step to be included, or just a waste of time.?
Personally, I think it's an important step, because I think it helps take out "high spots" on inconsistent neck wall thickness, which will help concentricity and neck tension. I think this one step really helps using my L.E. Wilson tool.
If this step isn't beneficial, please elaborate. If it is beneficial, tell us why you don't mention it.

I think you are referring to neck turning, correct? I've done that, and I believe I mentioned it in one of my posts. I do not turn necks when using the neck sizing method with the Lee Collet/Mandrel die. The die mandrel should provide an even case neck surface for the bullet. There are some precautions when turning necks. If you turn the neck too thin (and this may not be as thin as you might suspect), some standard dies will not squeeze the neck enough to hold a bullet. That would make some form of bushing die necessary. And as the case is repeatedly fired, the neck will become thicker, and the neck tension will change. Then you would need a variety of bushing sizes. I have sized with bushing dies, then noticed differences in neck tension when seating the bullets. I won't burden you with all the tests I did to arrive at the process I currently use, but there was some incredibly time-consuming effort in the process. I can mix turned necks with unturned necks, and still get the same results on the target using the Lee Collet/Mandrel die. Yes, I think neck turning can add a measure of consistency to the case, even using the Lee Collet/Mandrel. I just can't demonstrate it on a target at 100 yards, so I don't do it. If I had a $7,000 F/Open rifle and a $3,000 front rest, and always shot at 1,000 yards, I would test neck turning results on accuracy at 1,000 yards. I think it would require a 20-shot string to document any significant difference, but that's the number of shots in each relay of F-class. I live over an hour from the nearest 1,000 yd. range, and 20 minutes from the indoor 100 yard range. And it is time-consuming to set up at 1,000 yards, so it would take me a whole day. Ask an F/Open shooter who wins matches whether he turns necks. Go on Erik Cortina's blogs and inquire. Or phone an F-class gunsmith who makes match-winning rifles. Larry Racine is fairly regional to you. Call him. So is Jim Borden. Doan Trevor (far away) is another one, as well as Alex Wheeler (farther away), who was recently collaborating with Jim Borden. Hart Rifles, David Tubb, etc. I'm sorry to the ones I'm leaving out.

 

[rwj]

My passport does not permit me to leave Texas any more, so those will only be vicarious pleasures in the future.

Please explain… passports are for international travel… they’re not currently required for domestic travel in the US.

 

[jim_k]

Please explain… passports are for international travel… they’re not currently required for domestic travel in the US.

I'm joking. I'm simply not going to leave Texas often, if at all. Where are you from? My Dad lived in Longview, and I went to school in Nacogdoches. Still occasionally bowl in Livingston.

 

[wkdickinson]

One of the best vacations we ever took was to Traverse City. The golf course at the resort was the only Jack Nicklaus course I ever saw that was public, and I enjoyed spraying golf balls all over the place. Then we ate so many cherries our skin changed color. I have a new neighbor who went to the university in Duluth IIRC, and he said you could go to classes in your shorts during a snowstorm, because of a network of underground walkways. Now that's neat! My passport does not permit me to leave Texas any more, so those will only be vicarious pleasures in

Yes, the Traverse City area is really wonderful and so much to do. But you missed the most beautiful part of the MI, the UP. I've lived in Marquette for the last 35 years. I grew up and worked in lower Michigan and never thought I would move further north, but opportunities are where they are and consequently we are too. Today, I would never move, the central UP is truly one of the most beautiful place you will ever find. The natural beauty is amazing, the people are warm and welcoming and the outdoor opportunities are limitless.

If you ever have the opportunity, please come and see. Make sure and contact me beforehand, so we can meet and I can show you around.

Wayne

 

[mills braswell]

I think you are referring to neck turning, correct? I've done that, and I believe I mentioned it in one of my posts. I do not turn necks when using the neck sizing method with the Lee Collet/Mandrel die. The die mandrel should provide an even case neck surface for the bullet. There are some precautions when turning necks. If you turn the neck too thin (and this may not be as thin as you might suspect), some standard dies will not squeeze the neck enough to hold a bullet. That would make some form of bushing die necessary. And as the case is repeatedly fired, the neck will become thicker, and the neck tension will change. Then you would need a variety of bushing sizes. I have sized with bushing dies, then noticed differences in neck tension when seating the bullets. I won't burden you with all the tests I did to arrive at the process I currently use, but there was some incredibly time-consuming effort in the process. I can mix turned necks with unturned necks, and still get the same results on the target using the Lee Collet/Mandrel die. Yes, I think neck turning can add a measure of consistency to the case, even using the Lee Collet/Mandrel. I just can't demonstrate it on a target at 100 yards, so I don't do it. If I had a $7,000 F/Open rifle and a $3,000 front rest, and always shot at 1,000 yards, I would test neck turning results on accuracy at 1,000 yards. I think it would require a 20-shot string to document any significant difference, but that's the number of shots in each relay of F-class. I live over an hour from the nearest 1,000 yd. range, and 20 minutes from the indoor 100 yard range. And it is time-consuming to set up at 1,000 yards, so it would take me a whole day. Ask an F/Open shooter who wins matches whether he turns necks. Go on Erik Cortina's blogs and inquire. Or phone an F-class gunsmith who makes match-winning rifles. Larry Racine is fairly regional to you. Call him. So is Jim Borden. Doan Trevor (far away) is another one, as well as Alex Wheeler (farther away), who was recently collaborating with Jim Borden. Hart Rifles, David Tubb, etc. I'm sorry to the ones I'm leaving out.

All this knowledge, yet somehow you confused my reply. I specifically mentioned novice hand loaders for factory rifles. I specifically asked "Would you consider neck reaming once fired brass to be an important step to be included, or just a waste of time.?"
Maybe you should re-title you original post as "How to reload for long range precision custom rifles only" then the peons like me wouldn't be asking such stupid questions. I didn't ask for a lecture on neck turning, all of your 1,000 yard experience, or for all of the names of the elites. I just wanted you to maybe elaborate a bit on neck REAMING for a novice so they would understand the concept.
If this forum is just for the ultra experienced competition shooters only someone please message me and tell me, then I will never bother anyone again with such a basic question!

 

[wkdickinson]

All this knowledge, yet somehow you confused my reply. I specifically mentioned novice hand loaders for factory rifles. I specifically asked "Would you consider neck reaming once fired brass to be an important step to be included, or just a waste of time.?"
Maybe you should re-title you original post as "How to reload for long range precision custom rifles only" then the peons like me wouldn't be asking such stupid questions. I didn't ask for a lecture on neck turning, all of your 1,000 yard experience, or for all of the names of the elites. I just wanted you to maybe elaborate a bit on neck REAMING for a novice so they would understand the concept.
If this forum is just for the ultra experienced competition shooters only someone please message me and tell me, then I will never bother anyone again with such a basic question!

"Neck Reaming" - where did you come up with that one LOL. I haven't read anything about neck reaming for years and I don't recall ever reading about it on AS. I only know of one reason (could be more) to "neck ream" and that is when you "neck-down" a larger case to a smaller bullet (i.e., 308 to 7mm-08 or 30-06 to 25-06), you use a neck reamer to remove the excess brass that was moved to the inside of the neck. This is not an activity for the novice.

For case prep, if you are shooting factory rifles - buy yourself a good quality, full-length resizing dies, a can of Imperial Sizing Wax, a case trimmer and case mouth chamfering tool and have at it. I would guess about 99% of us all started that way. But maybe without the "good quality dies".

As you have likely noticed, many of the posts and subjects discussed on this forum are not aimed at the beginning handloader, plinker or hunter. That doesn't mean that you can't learn from them. But just remember, you learn to walk before you learn to run. Once you know how to run, you have to decide if the joy of running is enough or do you need to compete.

 

[jimmymac]

There are numerous methods to reload good ammunition. Im comfortable with my process and my targets are usually pretty good even though I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

 

[jim_k]

All this knowledge, yet somehow you confused my reply. I specifically mentioned novice hand loaders for factory rifles. I specifically asked "Would you consider neck reaming once fired brass to be an important step to be included, or just a waste of time.?"
Maybe you should re-title you original post as "How to reload for long range precision custom rifles only" then the peons like me wouldn't be asking such stupid questions. I didn't ask for a lecture on neck turning, all of your 1,000 yard experience, or for all of the names of the elites. I just wanted you to maybe elaborate a bit on neck REAMING for a novice so they would understand the concept.
If this forum is just for the ultra experienced competition shooters only someone please message me and tell me, then I will never bother anyone again with such a basic question!

RCBS and possibly other die makers will make an inside neck case reamer on request; at least they used to. I have not used one, or seen one used. I assumed (incorrectly) that you were referring to outside neck turning. Both of these are processes only used by more advanced reloaders. And my comments are really directed as much at accomplished reloaders as at novices. I did not include anything expensive or complicated, and that's the reason. As I mentioned, I like simple tools used correctly, and I'm basically "daring" people to match my ammo specs and performance with anything they can bring. I'll learn given the right information; and I might change my process for a reason. I mentioned testing annealing, and I found two videos from AMP, Annealing Made Perfect, who makes an induction annealer that is an excellent piece of equipment, if you can afford it. One video is Lou Murdica shooting annealed cases for 20 shots, and comparing non-annealed cases. The non-annealed cases got a group of 0.50". The annealed cases got a 20-shot 0.35" group. Lou is a benchrest shooter who has an indoor range which is 100 yds. His video is apples to oranges, though, since the rifles were different. The results are only valid when comparing the same load in the same rifle, with the same shooter, in the same conditions. So that does not qualify as valid for my purposes. The second video is at 1,000 yards, and shows two groups shot from the same rifle by the same shooter, with the same load, except one is annealed and the other group is not. But he only fired 5 shots, which is not enough to qualify as a valid test. The annealed group looked very much better, though. But 1,000 yard groups in F-class are 20 shots. So the test still needs to be done.
BTW, I only name-dropped the elites so as to provide names of people who win matches, and might be willing to say whether they neck turn or anneal.
If I'm still missing something about your question, hit me again, and I'll eventually understand how to respond properly. I used to be a flight instructor, and the students always wanted me to teach them the advanced stuff. My response was always that "the basics" IS the advanced stuff, and that mastery of the basics equals mastery PERIOD! I honestly think that my processes are simpler and as good as any, and would be the way I'd recommend for a newbie to start out.
Back to neck reaming, or inside neck turning, I would be concerned that the cutting process would leave marks inside the case neck, which could damage the bullet as it is being seated. For that reason, I would not recommend inside neck turning.

 

[mills braswell]

you use a neck reamer to remove the excess brass that was moved to the inside of the neck.

Well, I am a novice. L.E. Wilson manufactures a reamer that takes away excessive metal on the insides of the necks after fireforming. I'm assuming that it helps me because about 1 out of about every 5 cases I ream (new brass I loaded and fired) have material removed. Sometimes just a sometimes a tiny bit, sometimes more.
After f/l sizing (w/o expander) I use a mandrel, and expanding the necks FEELS more consistent. I think this contributes to a more uniform neck tension and can possibly help reduce flyers, IMO.
The Wilson instructions say that inside neck reaming is more for safety, to avoid overpressure, that "eliminating loads which otherwise would give excessive pressure is incidental to the main purpose."
I feel this step helps take away the excess metal that may be present and will contribute to not inducing run out during the sizing process, and will help make more consistent neck tension/uniform bullet release contributing to less flyers.
I bought a used M70 225 win at an auction a few years ago. It was a farmers rifle he kept in the truck for groundhogs, well used, and not properly cared for. Last fall I finally got some N140 and after one test session got this. I know it's nothing to you guys @100 yards, but I thought it was a decent 3 shot group. With a 3x9x40 Leupold Rifleman scope, not really a fine choice for target shooting but it was what I could afford at the time to get started.
Maybe one day down the road I can get the gun rebarrelled with a 1:10 twist, shoot a heavier, sleeker bullet, get a real stock/bedding/trigger/scope, and by then, have my handloading procedures fine tuned.
LOL, yeah, like I'll have the money to do that one day.

 

[mills braswell]

RCBS and possibly other die makers will make an inside neck case reamer on request; at least they used to. I have not used one, or seen one used. I assumed (incorrectly) that you were referring to outside neck turning. Both of these are processes only used by more advanced reloaders. And my comments are really directed as much at accomplished reloaders as at novices. I did not include anything expensive or complicated, and that's the reason. As I mentioned, I like simple tools used correctly, and I'm basically "daring" people to match my ammo specs and performance with anything they can bring. I'll learn given the right information; and I might change my process for a reason. I mentioned testing annealing, and I found two videos from AMP, Annealing Made Perfect, who makes an induction annealer that is an excellent piece of equipment, if you can afford it. One video is Lou Murdica shooting annealed cases for 20 shots, and comparing non-annealed cases. The non-annealed cases got a group of 0.50". The annealed cases got a 20-shot 0.35" group. Lou is a benchrest shooter who has an indoor range which is 100 yds. His video is apples to oranges, though, since the rifles were different. The results are only valid when comparing the same load in the same rifle, with the same shooter, in the same conditions. So that does not qualify as valid for my purposes. The second video is at 1,000 yards, and shows two groups shot from the same rifle by the same shooter, with the same load, except one is annealed and the other group is not. But he only fired 5 shots, which is not enough to qualify as a valid test. The annealed group looked very much better, though. But 1,000 yard groups in F-class are 20 shots. So the test still needs to be done.
BTW, I only name-dropped the elites so as to provide names of people who win matches, and might be willing to say whether they neck turn or anneal.
If I'm still missing something about your question, hit me again, and I'll eventually understand how to respond properly. I used to be a flight instructor, and the students always wanted me to teach them the advanced stuff. My response was always that "the basics" IS the advanced stuff, and that mastery of the basics equals mastery PERIOD! I honestly think that my processes are simpler and as good as any, and would be the way I'd recommend for a newbie to start out.
Back to neck reaming, or inside neck turning, I would be concerned that the cutting process would leave marks inside the case neck, which could damage the bullet as it is being seated. For that reason, I would not recommend inside neck turning.

You told tominboise that you do not anneal, yet you tell me to buy an annealer if I can afford one? I have started annealing with really dim light, a propane torch, and a wooden tool I made to spin the case with, so no, I won't be buying an annealing machine for a factory rifle.
You also said "I assumed (incorrectly) that you were referring to outside neck turning". So much for "the basics" like comprehension, huh.

 

[CT10ring]

Well, I am a novice. L.E. Wilson manufactures a reamer that takes away excessive metal on the insides of the necks after fireforming. I'm assuming that it helps me because about 1 out of about every 5 cases I ream (new brass I loaded and fired) have material removed. Sometimes just a sometimes a tiny bit, sometimes more.
After f/l sizing (w/o expander) I use a mandrel, and expanding the necks FEELS more consistent. I think this contributes to a more uniform neck tension and can possibly help reduce flyers, IMO.
The Wilson instructions say that inside neck reaming is more for safety, to avoid overpressure, that "eliminating loads which otherwise would give excessive pressure is incidental to the main purpose."
I feel this step helps take away the excess metal that may be present and will contribute to not inducing run out during the sizing process, and will help make more consistent neck tension/uniform bullet release contributing to less flyers.
I bought a used M70 225 win at an auction a few years ago. It was a farmers rifle he kept in the truck for groundhogs, well used, and not properly cared for. Last fall I finally got some N140 and after one test session got this. I know it's nothing to you guys @100 yards, but I thought it was a decent 3 shot group. With a 3x9x40 Leupold Rifleman scope, not really a fine choice for target shooting but it was what I could afford at the time to get started.
Maybe one day down the road I can get the gun rebarrelled with a 1:10 twist, shoot a heavier, sleeker bullet, get a real stock/bedding/trigger/scope, and by then, have my handloading procedures fine tuned.
LOL, yeah, like I'll have the money to do that one day.

With regard to inside neck reaming - I bought a very nice, used 22BR no turn neck chamber rifle (still shoot it) that came with some loaded ammo. Varget & 55g SBK's. It was clear that the ammo was loaded hot! The neck tension was (mostly) the culprit. I deloaded the ammo and inside reamed the necks - just a hunch...a first. Wilson reamer on a case trimmer setup. Ran thru a mandrel after to smooth it a bit. Bit of steel wool on an art swab spun to smooth the necks. Maybe a bit obsessive but It made a HUGE difference in accuracy and no more very hard bolt lift, no cratered primers ( vs the original ammo supplied). This is 6BR Lapua brass necked to 22 BR - thickens necks too much. I bought many more Lapua cases + neck sized + inside reamed all of em. Perfect. Hope this all makes sense.

Edit: I can't see a reason to inside ream a case, otherwise. I use a Sinclair expander mandrel on new cases to straighten necks- the expansion is nil on a new case.

 

[wkdickinson]

Well, I am a novice. L.E. Wilson manufactures a reamer that takes away excessive metal on the insides of the necks after fireforming. I'm assuming that it helps me because about 1 out of about every 5 cases I ream (new brass I loaded and fired) have material removed. Sometimes just a sometimes a tiny bit, sometimes more.
After f/l sizing (w/o expander) I use a mandrel, and expanding the necks FEELS more consistent. I think this contributes to a more uniform neck tension and can possibly help reduce flyers, IMO.
The Wilson instructions say that inside neck reaming is more for safety, to avoid overpressure, that "eliminating loads which otherwise would give excessive pressure is incidental to the main purpose."
I feel this step helps take away the excess metal that may be present and will contribute to not inducing run out during the sizing process, and will help make more consistent neck tension/uniform bullet release contributing to less flyers.
I bought a used M70 225 win at an auction a few years ago. It was a farmers rifle he kept in the truck for groundhogs, well used, and not properly cared for. Last fall I finally got some N140 and after one test session got this. I know it's nothing to you guys @100 yards, but I thought it was a decent 3 shot group. With a 3x9x40 Leupold Rifleman scope, not really a fine choice for target shooting but it was what I could afford at the time to get started.
Maybe one day down the road I can get the gun rebarrelled with a 1:10 twist, shoot a heavier, sleeker bullet, get a real stock/bedding/trigger/scope, and by then, have my handloading procedures fine tuned.
LOL, yeah, like I'll have the money to do that one day.

Mills - I don't understand why you have decided inside neck reaming is a required step in your loading process. My guess is that if you took a poll of the people who participate on this forum, few, very few, even own an inside neck reamer. In fact, it appears to me that many, if not most people have even stopped outside neck turning, unless they have a chamber with a "tight" neck. But if it works for you, who am I to tell you your wrong.

Looking at your target, I think you should be pretty happy if you can consistently shoot those kind of groups.

 

[jim_k]

With regard to inside neck reaming - I bought a very nice, used 22BR no turn neck chamber (still shoot it) that came with some loaded ammo. Varget & 55g SBK's. It was clear that the ammo was loaded hot! The neck tension was (mostly) the culprit. I deloaded the ammo and inside reamed the necks - just a hunch...a first. Wilson reamer on a case trimmer setup. Ran thru a mandrel after to smooth it a bit. Bit of steel wool on an art swab spun to smooth the necks. It made a HUGE difference. This is 6BR Lapua brass necked to 22 BR-thickens necks too much. I bought many more Lapua cases + neck sized + inside reamed all of em. fwiw.

You can see on the Lou Murdica video for AMP that he applies moly to the inside of the case necks. He does not provide information on the measurements of his chambers with regard to neck size, nor does he specify his case neck thickness. He did not measure neck thickness during either of the 20-shot groups, and he reloaded one case 20 times to shoot both groups. Thanks for the info on your neck prep. As you know, consistent neck tension is one of the secrets of small groups. Tight chamber necks are another. I would certainly not recommend a tight-neck chamber for anyone who did not already know they needed one. That can be a risky thing for many reloaders.

 

[jim_k]

Well, I am a novice. L.E. Wilson manufactures a reamer that takes away excessive metal on the insides of the necks after fireforming. I'm assuming that it helps me because about 1 out of about every 5 cases I ream (new brass I loaded and fired) have material removed. Sometimes just a sometimes a tiny bit, sometimes more.
After f/l sizing (w/o expander) I use a mandrel, and expanding the necks FEELS more consistent. I think this contributes to a more uniform neck tension and can possibly help reduce flyers, IMO.
The Wilson instructions say that inside neck reaming is more for safety, to avoid overpressure, that "eliminating loads which otherwise would give excessive pressure is incidental to the main purpose."
I feel this step helps take away the excess metal that may be present and will contribute to not inducing run out during the sizing process, and will help make more consistent neck tension/uniform bullet release contributing to less flyers.
I bought a used M70 225 win at an auction a few years ago. It was a farmers rifle he kept in the truck for groundhogs, well used, and not properly cared for. Last fall I finally got some N140 and after one test session got this. I know it's nothing to you guys @100 yards, but I thought it was a decent 3 shot group. With a 3x9x40 Leupold Rifleman scope, not really a fine choice for target shooting but it was what I could afford at the time to get started.
Maybe one day down the road I can get the gun rebarrelled with a 1:10 twist, shoot a heavier, sleeker bullet, get a real stock/bedding/trigger/scope, and by then, have my handloading procedures fine tuned.
LOL, yeah, like I'll have the money to do that one day.

IIRC, the RCBS neck reamer uses a die that sizes the neck, and the reamer is introduced with the case in the die. Not sure about that. Also, it's interesting to see that your group and my best 20-shot group ever used a 52 gr. 22 cal bullet. My best 20-shot group at 100 yds. was 0.68" CTC. I was also shooting a Model 70, but with a Pac-Nor custom barrel, and a Jewell trigger. For heavier bullets, I'd get a 1:7 twist barrel, which will stabilize any of the 80 gr. target bullets in 22 cal. I was also using a 42 power NightForce Benchrest scope, so there's no telling how well you can do with a custom barrel and high-magnification scope. I wouldn't even attempt to shoot a group with a 9X scope, so my hat's off to you on your shooting, seriously! When you get the bug to build, I'd get a good trigger, a custom Rem 700 short-action clone like the Zermatt Bighorn with a .308 bolt face (shoots all the cartridges with .308-size case head), a KRG Bravo stock (does not need bedding, and comes with bottom metal for MagPul AICS magazines), and get a barrel and recoil lug/barrel nut from Northland Shooters Supply for 6.5 Creedmoor or other favorite caliber. I think you'd fall in love with that for sure. State of the art has changed rapidly in the firearms industry in the past few years.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I'm joking. I'm simply not going to leave Texas often, if at all. Where are you from? My Dad lived in Longview, and I went to school in Nacogdoches. Still occasionally bowl in Livingston.

Im from marshall and went to school in nacogdoches (SFA) as well.