how to reduce ES most important things

[rockwind1]

for prs style shooting (i said style, i know shooting a 308 in prs is not the thing),,,, after powder charge and neck tension by sizing (in between .001 and .003), what are the "easier things" to work on to reduce it without going into full on benchrest style prep

i was going to
1. uniform the primer pockets and
2. make sure run out/concentricty are below 2000th's.
3. i have a nice primer seater that can seat the primers to within .001 so hope that helps and is worth the time.

what pays off big dividends vs time? is it worth it to mess around with the flash holes?

does going for a neck tension of .001 help at all?

is neck turning really worth it for prs style/ just wanting a very good hunting round for the possible long shot?

thanks!

 

[memilanuk]

for prs style shooting (i said style, i know shooting a 308 in prs is not the thing)

Sure it is. It's called 'Tactical Class'

So, in the context of PRS / Tactical class:

1. uniform the primer pockets and

Waste of time.

2. make sure run out/concentricty are below 2000th's.

Waste of time - unless you are being truly ham-fisted whilst reloading, this is a non-issue.

3. i have a nice primer seater that can seat the primers to within .001 so hope that helps and is worth the time.

Absolute waste of time.

what pays off big dividends vs time?

Practice your positional shooting. You'll pick up far more points there than you will at the loading bench.

is it worth it to mess around with the flash holes?

Waste of time, unless you have piss-poor brass to begin with.

does going for a neck tension of .001 help at all?

That's *worse* than a waste of time; it's asking for trouble. For PRS style shooting, your ammo needs to be somewhat durable. You aren't going to be shooting under a cover on concrete benches like BR, and you aren't going to be shooting on a nice flat 'groomed' firing line like F-Class.

is neck turning really worth it for prs style/ just wanting a very good hunting round for the possible long shot?

Depends on the gun. For the most part, no. PRS generally tends to consume enough brass, in high enough quantities, with a good chance of losing some of that brass at any given stage, that neck turning is a lot of effort to invest in brass that you might not have by the end of the day.

 

[rockwind1]

thank you milanuk!!! great answers! i have another question that i am going to post on a new thread because it is off topic from this one.

 

[4xforfun]

Sure it is. It's called 'Tactical Class'

So, in the context of PRS / Tactical class:

Waste of time.
Waste of time - unless you are being truly ham-fisted whilst reloading, this is a non-issue.
Absolute waste of time.

Practice your positional shooting. You'll pick up far more points there than you will at the loading bench.

Waste of time, unless you have piss-poor brass to begin with.

That's *worse* than a waste of time; it's asking for trouble. For PRS style shooting, your ammo needs to be somewhat durable. You aren't going to be shooting under a cover on concrete benches like BR, and you aren't going to be shooting on a nice flat 'groomed' firing line like F-Class.

Depends on the gun. For the most part, no. PRS generally tends to consume enough brass, in high enough quantities, with a good chance of losing some of that brass at any given stage, that neck turning is a lot of effort to invest in brass that you might not have by the end of the day.

LOVE THIS ANSWER....TOP TO BOTTOM!!

Tod

 

[rockwind1]

ok, another thing, the primer pockets on fired brass is kind of dirty, since it seems like primer depth and uniforming pockets is not a big issue with my style, is cleaning the pockets also really necessary? maybe just clean them every third time or so?

when i mentioned prs, it was kind of a global term, i know there are tons of 308's used in matchs, i guess i just meant the local prs matches around here everyone seems to use 6.5, 6mm, maybe that new prc round. that's all.

 

[Raythemanroe]

I am all for uniformity and low ES's but I feel so many people mistake that for a tuned rifle... 3-2-1


Ray

 

[memilanuk]

ok, another thing, the primer pockets on fired brass is kind of dirty, since it seems like primer depth and uniforming pockets is not a big issue with my style, is cleaning the pockets also really necessary? maybe just clean them every third time or so?

I don't think even then it would help/matter. It's more one of those things where if it really bugs you, do it. But outside of extremely controlled environments like Benchrest, I don't think you're going to find anyone who can demonstratively prove that it does anything beneficial, beyond satisfying the OCD urge that many of us suffer from

when i mentioned prs, it was kind of a global term, i know there are tons of 308's used in matchs, i guess i just meant the local prs matches around here everyone seems to use 6.5, 6mm, maybe that new prc round. that's all.

Same around here. Most of the serious 'competitors' are running the latest greatest cartridges. Occasionally a match will have a dedicated Tactical class for those running .308/.223.

 

[Someoldguy]

One of the guys at work shoots PRS. He quit loading for it. Not sure what ammo he's buying, but he couldn't see the difference in his scores, and after selling the brass he concluded it wasn't worth the time to mess with it. And he seems to do pretty well. He was shooting a 6.5 Creedmore last season, switched to 6.0 Creedmore for this season.

YMMV.

 

[rockwind1]

my actual true purpose is my gap extreme hunter and my defensive edge 338. they are both hunting rifles and i want them to be as accurate as possible in a hunting situation, and normally i have plenty of time to get in a good prone position and take my time ranging, checking wind, and using my kestrel/ab

i just mentioned prs because i did one match once and it is the closest thing to what my goals are, plus i might try another match soon.

i think practice is more important than spending hours reloading but I need to reload for my gap 4s since there is no quality ammo available

 

[memilanuk]

If you're just wanting to improve your confidence level in your ammo for hunting, where you aren't going to be firing a lot of shots, then do whatever makes you feel better. I'd still recommend practicing from field positions - a lot - even if it is with something smaller like a .22 LR or .223 Rem.

 

[dmoran]

@rockwind1
My own inputs to you:


1. Uniform primer pockets
For me: YES
Consistency gains to primer crush, pin fall & lock time, primer protrusion, pocket depths, and ignition.


2. Run out/concentricty
For me: YES, but limited
I use concentrics to judge how well I can make ammo. It tells me how good my dies are working and/or how well I have them setup, and how well my techniques to using my reloading equipment are. It can pin point reloading equipment issues and procedure faults. And it especially tells me how well I can seat the bullets.
Concentrics can also tell us a lot about our rifle chambers and action alignments.


3. Can seat the primers to within .001, is worth the time.
For me: YES
For all the same reasons I listed above for "Uniform primer pockets".


What pays off big dividends vs time?
In my experience, the combination of all the little things, add up to big things
Consistent seating depth and neck tension, matter the most to me.


Is it worth it to mess around with the flash holes?
For me: YES & NO
I measure (pin-gages) flash-holes to see how consistent they are. If all are with in 1-thousandths or so, I leave them alone. If there are only a couple bad apples, I cue them out. If there is variance across many, I uniform them. For consistent primer spark & spark length, I believe flash-holes uniformity is our controlling aspect.


Does going for a neck tension of .001 help at all?
Input only:
To me, optimal neck tension is part of load development, for each bullet being tried/used. That only the targets can answer what neck tension will produce the best and most consistent accuracy.
For clip feeding and/or anything other then single feed ammo, light neck tension can have limitations.


Neck turning - wanting a very good hunting round for the possible long shot?
Input only:
Consistent neck tension and seating force, can be directly effected by neck wall thickness. For me, it is a "must do", for best and most consistent accuracy potential. With that said, myself will always turn case necks.


Obviously there's lots of opinions, reasoning's, and ways of doing things.
Testing will most always answer our own questions and scenario's - IME
Good Luck
Donovan

 

[CharlieNC]

For time constraints, rapid loading from a mag, be sure you're sizing to correct head space to have smooth bolt operation. A stuck or tight brass will ruin your score.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

For time constraints, rapid loading from a mag, be sure you're sizing to correct head space to have smooth bolt operation. A stuck or tight brass will ruin your score.

And light neck tension to get better chrono numbers is even worse in a speed load magazine fed rifle

 

[Ned Ludd]

@rockwind1
My own inputs to you:


1. Uniform primer pockets
For me: YES
Reasons:
Consistency gains to primer crush, pin fall & lock time, primer protrusion, pocket depths, and ignition.


2. Run out/concentricty
For me: YES, but limited
Explanation:
I use concentrics to judge how well I can make ammo. It tells me how good my dies are working and/or how well I have them setup, and how well my techniques to using my reloading equipment are. It can pin point reloading equipment issues and procedure faults. And it especially tells me how well I can seat the bullets.
Concentrics can also tell use a lot about our rifle chambers and action alignments.


3. Can seat the primers to within .001, is worth the time.
For me: YES
Reasons:
For the same reasons I listed above for "uniform primer pockets", applies here as well.


What pays off big dividends vs time?
My own experience says, the combination of all these little things, add up to a very big thing
Consistent seating depth and neck tension, matter the most to me.


Is it worth it to mess around with the flash holes?
For me: YES & NO
Explanation:
I measure (pin-gages) flash-holes to see how consistent they are. If they are all with in 1-thousandths or so of each other, I leave them alone. If there are only a couple bad apples, I cue them out. If there is variance across them all, I uniform them. For consistent primer spark & spark length, myself believe flash-holes is our controlling aspect.


Does going for a neck tension of .001 help at all?
Input only:
To me, optimal neck tension is part of load development, for each bullet being tried/used. That only the targets can answer what neck tension will produce the best and most consistent accuracy.
For clip feeding and/or anything other then single feed ammo, light neck tension can have limitations.


Keck turning - wanting a very good hunting round for the possible long shot?
Input only:
Consistent neck tension and seating force, can be directly effected by neck wall thickness. For me, it is a "must do", for best and most consistent accuracy potential.
With that said, myself will always turn case necks, to assure there consistency.


Obviously there's lots of opinions, reasoning's, and ways of doing things.
Testing will most always answer our own questions and scenario's - IME
Good Luck
Donovan

A detailed and well thought-out reply, as per your usual. All except for one thing...do you personally carry all these steps to produce ammunition specifically for shooting PRS-style competitions, which is what the OP asked about? If not, I think you'd find as Monte stated previously that the same precision reloading steps that might prove essential for BR or F-Class are largely wasted.

 

[dmoran]

@gstaylorg
Thanks.... and maybe I'm unusual: but I do these things for all forms of reloading. I don't disconnect hunting ammo to need any less accuracy potential then I use in competition. Those "once in a life time" opportunities and "shot placement ability" mean a lot to me (and my customers).

In competition shooting, no matter what the discipline or skill level, I am a firm believer that accurate ammo and well tuned loads will help in the final scores and finishing position. Also firmly believe, the more accurate the ammo has more potential against all mother-natures adversities.
Donovan

 

[retired]

it is actually pretty simple
CONTROL EVERYTHING YOU CAN AFFORD TO CONTROL.
afford is time and money
as donovan said treat it all like the top of the line best, never gonna happen again.
only you can determine what your wallet and your time can afford.
yes if you are trying to make a benchrest gun out of a bottom tier hunting rifle,
you might want to take a step back and rethink.

 

[Richard Coody]

now i have gone down the rabbit hole. with my bench guns i do everything i can think of. some made a difference. Some didn't.

now i use lapua brass and never mess with primer.pockets or flash holes. when i seat a primer, i use the Sinclair, i want to feel iit seat. all this stuff about measured primer seating is bull in my opinion. if your primer isn't seated firmly i don't want to hear about primers not firing.

i would say if you want to avoid the rabbit hole then the.most.important thing is a load that has a wider node and very accurate and consistent charge weight. seating depth node is right behind charge weight.

 

[Sheldon N]

Sure it is. It's called 'Tactical Class'

So, in the context of PRS / Tactical class:

Waste of time.
Waste of time - unless you are being truly ham-fisted whilst reloading, this is a non-issue.
Absolute waste of time.

Practice your positional shooting. You'll pick up far more points there than you will at the loading bench.

Waste of time, unless you have piss-poor brass to begin with.

That's *worse* than a waste of time; it's asking for trouble. For PRS style shooting, your ammo needs to be somewhat durable. You aren't going to be shooting under a cover on concrete benches like BR, and you aren't going to be shooting on a nice flat 'groomed' firing line like F-Class.

Depends on the gun. For the most part, no. PRS generally tends to consume enough brass, in high enough quantities, with a good chance of losing some of that brass at any given stage, that neck turning is a lot of effort to invest in brass that you might not have by the end of the day.

Spot on advice. I'm doing the PRS thing pretty seriously and milanuk nails it.

You want to get better at hitting targets when out hunting or other real world scenarios? Here's what I would say is the order of priority where your efforts should be.

1. Positional shooting skills. Being able to shoot all possible positions, any scenario, under time pressure and adrenaline.
2. Wind reading skills.
3. Having solid dope on your rifle in all environmental conditions, proven from lots of rounds downrange.
4. Choosing the right load, not fancy reloading techniques just picking the right powder charge and seating depth for optimal performance.
...
and way down the bottom of the list is the itty bitty difference that any of the fine tuning reloading things you mentioned might or might not make. Yes, you need to do them to win in Benchrest, but that's not what you asked about.

 

[carlsbad]

So all the things Benchrest shooters do is a waste of time for PRS. Haven't seen one PRS suggestion to reduce ES. So I guess PRS shooters can shoot factory ammo. --Jerry

 

[Someoldguy]

So all the things Benchrest shooters do is a waste of time for PRS. Haven't seen one PRS suggestion to reduce ES. So I guess PRS shooters can shoot factory ammo. --Jerry

Shoot your reloads on targets. Shoot factory ammo on targets. Do your reloads shoot better?

Yes- you'd better get busy and do some reloading.

No - You'd better get busy and order some of that same lot.

ES - Yeah, that's all well and good IF it matters.

But what the heck do I know?