How to hook up a BenchSource annealer to a 5 gallon propane tank

[normmatzen]

jlow,
I feel comfortable with an induction annealer as I am an electronic engineer (analog, not digital) and I understand the Royer oscillator used in my Annie. As long as the line voltage stays constant, the power ( energy) delivered to the case neck is first order controlled by geometry.
In a propane torch, geometry also is a first order control, but so too is the effective pressure supplied to the flame. The flame temp may be pretty constant, but the flame shape and size, hence energy delivery, varies dramatically as the knob controlling "flow" is extremely coarse and exact control is difficult.
It is difficult enough to keep the geometry constant with a propane torch ( I used to use this method) so why compound the problem with a flame of varying and unknown energy. I still claim that a pressure regulator is well worth the $39 on ebay!

 

[jlow]

Normmatzen – I have absolutely nothing against the induction annealer. It is a promising technology and I hope it can improve on our sport. My only concern is when a technology is touted as an improvement without proof. If you are in the science area like me, I am sure you have seen like I have many new and promising technology that has shown up but fall short under real life testing conditions vs. potential ability. One excellent example is the digital scale which I am sure we are familiar with that story.

I agree with you that one of the potential weakness of the propane method is a potential change in gas pressure, that will surely change the geometry of the flame shape and size, and that surely will affect the amount of energy put into the annealing. It is also true that when the torch heats up from initial ignition, the same change in pressure/geometry happens, I think because of changes in geometry in the torch itself.

These are the exact reasons why I made the conversion from the small 1 lb gas bottle to the 20 lb ones. With the larger bottle, you are first not wondering if a partial 1 lb bottle is going to run low or out of gas during an anneal session involving large number of cases and you have no problem initially running the torch for at least 5 minutes to allow the torch temperature to stabilize. Other than these two problems, I don’t see a reason why gas pressure should change during an anneal.

FWIW, one never adjust the gas flow during an anneal so the coarse and difficult control you are talking about is only briefly encountered after the torches reaches stable temperature. What I do is to adjust the length of the flame using a calibration standard ( a piece of 223 brass with a line..). The ONLY purpose of this adjust is to set an approximate degree of heat coming from the torch. Once that is set, you never touch the gas flow adjustment – it’s fixed, the same with distance from torch to the case neck/shoulder, and where the torches are aimed are all FIXED.

The fine adjustment is all done by changing the annealing time. You put sample pieces of brass you are going to anneal on the BenchSource and run them through. If you do not seen proper anneal (either by Tempilaq in the neck or the dull glow in the dark), you incrementally increase the time used on each piece of brass ¼ second at a time. Once you see that you are getting proper anneal, you run a few more pieces through to make sure that this can be done consistently and then you are off to the races. QC is done both during the anneal and at the end of the anneal.

If you can see a flaw in my logic, I would be interested in hearing about this since it can potentially be used to improve on my current method.

 

[spclark]

I still claim that a pressure regulator is well worth the $39 on ebay!

Oh yeah, you most assuredly ought to be using one on a consumer-size tank!

http://www.propane101.com/consumerpropanecylinders.htm

Please remember too if you're carting a newly-filled 20# tank into a heated space there's a good chance its pressure relief valve might burp off excess propane as the tank and liquid inside warms. Not something you want in your basement, certainly not while your annealer's running.

I'll stick with the small bottles for use with a torch for now. Flame geometry seems pretty consistent over the 30+ years I've been using my favorite one for. Atmittedly as a tank gets emptied I have to open the torch valve for the inner cone length I prefer until it just won't cut it. Then I know that tank's empty & time for a fresh one. I go thru one about once a year.

 

[jlow]

Actually nothing like that has ever happened. The guy who filled mine does it on a scale and he has done it that way for me for 20 years, never had any problem. I also weight the tank before and after and confirmed that he put 20 lb in. Would be interested to hear from other people about a similar experience.

You must do small number of cases as I have gone through about 5 tanks already and I’ve only had the machine for about 2 years. Opening the valve when the tank gets empty is I think exactly what normmatzen is talking about and I strive to avoid for the reasons already mentioned.

 

[spclark]

The guy who filled mine does it on a scale and he has done it that way for me for 20 years, never had any problem. I also weight the tank before and after and confirmed that he put 20 lb in.

Your guy's way is the correct way. My comment on the gas release potential is for when the tank is cold when empty, filled to capacity when cold, then brought into a warmer environment. Liquid expands, relief valve opens. Fine when tank's on a camper headed south from around here to say Florida, not so much when used in a basement or other confined space immediately after filling.

This the regulator you were referring to? For the money it looks like it gives more control over one of the non-gauged variety which seem to be much more common and can cost more as well.

Yeah, I don't go thru a lot of cases in a year. Maybe 600 - 700 in total, each annealed perhaps twice. Mostly 308. When a pound bottle runs low I might use it for maybe 50 cases at most before swapping in a fresh one. Otherwise it's open the valve, do a few, watch flame diminish, open valve more....

 

[jlow]

Thanks! Yea as someone we know once said: “trust but verify”… Holds well for this stuff.

I’ll look into the regulator, looks just like the one I used to use in the lab, pretty straight forward.

 

[savagedasher]

Thanks! Yea as someone we know once said: “trust but verify”… Holds well for this stuff.

I’ll look into the regulator, looks just like the one I used to use in the lab, pretty straight forward.

Someone said in here that tips had a regulator built in. A bottle of propain small or large has the same pressure . If someone wants another regulator . It's their choice.
Mine works great without it . Larry

 

[rayporter]

adjustable regulators are available and will help to keep pressure equal. it is also necessary for some high pressure 'fish cookers'

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007PS0938/?tag=accuratescom-20

 

[normmatzen]

Jlow,

I think you are spot on, except for one thing. I bought my first Bernz-o-matic torch back in the late 60's and finally replaced it with a Harbor Freight model.
Both of these torches, as well as a welding set I bought from Sears many years ago that I still use sometimes. The adjusting knob is way too coarse for accurate adjustments. What's even more important from a pressure regulation point of view is the tiny orifice in the torch. This orifice forces the adjusting knob to set the pressure forcing gas through this tiny orifice. The knob is a flow adjuster, not a pressure adjuster. With a given flow set, the second order changes like temp and actual liquid still in the tank WILL change the pressure the little orifice sees. Add a "$39" regulator, and most of these second order variables go away. Now the tiny orifice, which is the actual flow
regulator, sees a constant pressure. A constant pressure that maintains a consistent amount of gas flow.
Now, I'll bet a lot of the warm up, tank temp and other problems go away.

 

[jlow]

That’s really interesting because I have a slightly different experience.

A few years ago when I brought the BenchSource, I was of course excited to try the machine. Knowing that it did not come with torches, I ran down to Lowe’s and brought what they had, thinking a torch is a torch right? What I got was a couple of Worthington Pro Grade torches. Went home, plug them in and tested them. To my dismay, I had a real hard time adjusting the flames… In desperation, I called the company that make the BenchSource and talked to the owner. He was very nice and explained that the brand of torch I use make a big difference and that the only brand they would recommend then is the Benzomatic UL100 because of problem with the Worthintons. I got the Benzomatic and they have been flawless ever since.

I cannot explain the difference in our experience except for the fact that there is about a 50 year difference in the manufacturing of the two torches. The Benzomatic allow fine control of the flame and is in no way coarse like the Worthintons.

I certainly agree that temperature and actual liquid in the tank affects pressure, but I use the tank indoors and so temperature is not going to change significantly, and of course slight changes in the volume of a 20 gallon tank will affect pressure much less than the same volume change in a 1 lb tank. This of course is a big reason to go the 20 gallon tank route.

 

[Endyo]

...I use the tank indoors...QUOTE]

I have been shopping every option for an annealer. I looked at a Benchsource and virtually every other option. I am now back at a Benchsource after going full circle. I apologize for my newbie questions but this thread is of great interest to me as y'all are actual Bench Source users.

1. I'm assuming it is safe to anneal indoors Bench Source or otherwise. I know Mr. Buddy heater is safe to use indoor Propane burns cleanly so no issues with CO, etc?

2. Watching videos on the Benchsource I came across a few where the case seems to "wobble" this video portrays it the best:

I hope my definition of "wobble" for lack of better term is evident. I'm sure this only makes a small difference in actual annealing, but from my perspective it doesn't look like the case would be getting a uniform amount of heat from the torches as one side spins away further than the other.

Has the user set up the Bench Source incorrectly or applied improper technique? Or is this due to the smaller case size (6 Dasher). I don't want to spend $500+ on a unit and find my cases wobble like in this video.

I'm sorry to deviate from the original topic. I don't want to start a new thread and get 5 suggestions to go with Annealeez or Giraud or Skip' design since that's how most my Annealing topics deviate.

Since I presume all of you are Bench Source owners I hoped y'all could fill me in.

 

[Bob L.]

Endyo,

The Benchsource can easily be adjusted to minimize or eliminate the wobble by moving the case holder disk position relative to the spindle using the two silver thumbscrews. The manual gives instructions. I use mine for BRX cases and have little wobble.

Bob

 

[jlow]

There is always a bit of danger using propane indoors but one really does not have much options when it is single digit temps outdoors. Safety precautions like have reasonable ventilation and not overdoing it helps. It’s not a commercial setup for me and even my "big" anneals does not mean it is on for a long time since each case only takes about 4-5 seconds max.

As Bob L said, the “wobble” comes from the case not being 100% centered which you can adjust it to not wobble at all. But in the end, it’s like what is the perfect amount of heat? What is the exact location that one should point the torches to? Obviously, the answer to all three is one should try your best but if it is not 100.000% perfect, it is not so important because the most important thing apart from getting the above 3 reasonably good, the right anneal time, is CONSISTENCY. That last part is assured as long as you are using the machine and keeping the gas pressure/heat consistent.

BTW, that setup in the video is way off... A little wobble is normal but those are doing hula hoops. The user does not know what he is doing...

 

[savagedasher]

There is always a bit of danger using propane indoors but one really does not have much options when it is single digit temps outdoors. Safety precautions like have reasonable ventilation and not overdoing it helps. It’s not a commercial setup for me and even my "big" anneals does not mean it is on for a long time since each case only takes about 4-5 seconds max.

As Bob L said, the “wobble” comes from the case not being 100% centered which you can adjust it to not wobble at all. But in the end, it’s like what is the perfect amount of heat? What is the exact location that one should point the torches to? Obviously, the answer to all three is one should try your best but if it is not 100.000% perfect, it is not so important because the most important thing apart from getting the above 3 reasonably good, the right anneal time, is CONSISTENCY. That last part is assured as long as you are using the machine and keeping the gas pressure/heat consistent.

I know 3 PSI is going to make a difference in my annealing.
The orfaces in the tips are designed with with the shoutoff are designed to work for full bottle pressure. Mine works perfect hooked to the big bottle. Larry

 

[jlow]

Thanks Larry! I am looking forward to trying it out this week!

 

[savagedasher]

Thanks Larry! I am looking forward to trying it out this week!

Have fun works great Larry

 

[Endyo]

Thanks Guys!

That's what I needed to know. I ordered my Bench Source last night!

 

[spclark]

1. I'm assuming it is safe to anneal indoors Bench Source or otherwise. I know Mr. Buddy heater is safe to use indoor Propane burns cleanly so no issues with CO, etc?

There is always a bit of danger using propane indoors but one really does not have much options when it is single digit temps outdoors. Safety precautions like have reasonable ventilation and not overdoing it helps.

Prior to a month ago my only experience with propane was using a 1 pound bottle for annealing, or maybe a camp stove to make breakfast.

Contemplating adding insulation to my garage I bought a 40,000 BTU ‘torpedo’ style forced-air propane heater and a 20 pound tank to provide heat as I cut & staple fiberglass in place, then before first use I did some reading….

ANY carbon-based fuel when burned has a potential for carbon monoxide production. As jlow suggests, ventilation is the big factor when using propane.

In the quantities that heater burns there’s enough air change in my garage in an hour with the big overhead door cracked an inch at the bottom to mitigate most risk. For a single- or dual-torch annealer in a basement, I doubt there’s too little oxygen present to create much risk even for an extended session.

My wife can smell it when I'm annealing in the basement so there is a combustion byproduct, not unlike what you can smell where propane-fueled forklifts are in operation.

My focus for safety is on leak detection and prevention, just like with natural gas. Make sure your hoses and connection hardware are in good shape and tight before firing anything up. Liquid detergent mixed 50/50 with water is fine for detecting leaks at connections and if you like there are liquid products at most hardware stores that are even better for a few bucks.

Like with reloading in general, keep in mind at all times you’re messing with fire & you should be OK. No shortcuts. Ever.

 

[jlow]

I have some experience with ‘torpedo” style’ force air propane heater. Many years ago I was home with the in-laws in Minnesota. Very cold night and we lost power. My father-in-law being a farmer had one of those and ran it in the basement. Woke up in the middle of the night with a splitting headache and quickly knew what was happening. Turn the heater off and open the doors, all none too soon I am sure.

The BenchSource is really made to be used indoors since you will be exposed to wind and like outdoors which will affect annealing consistency. The torches are very small and nothing like the ‘torpedo style’ heater which burns a lot more propane and generate a huge amount of CO. Still, one has to use our heads and take the proper precautions as already listed.

 

[jlow]

Had an afternoon open up and so ran the BenchSource and annealed 400 pieces of .223 brass - all went well. Lighting the torches was a little bit more touchy, feels like slightly more pressure but no problem adjusting the flame once they lit and keeping it to a consistent length through the whole run. Started to bump the shoulders back and basically was able to get a good consistent bump with variance around 1/2 thousands, basically within the ability of my Mito calipers to measure. So all is well and I am very happy with the setup.