how to fix this handgun recoil impulse (low left)

[johnfkingmatrix]

Dry firing can be a very productive endeavor. What you are trying to do is develop a uniform stance, grip, trigger control, sight alignment, breath control and getting the shot off in a timely manner.

Another exercise our instructor used to demonstrate the effect of the bottom three fingers is to use one of those spring hand exercisers. Close the handles and insert a quarter at bottom of the handles. While holding the exerciser closed, close your eyes and work your trigger finger back and forth. Every new shooter and some experienced shooters I ever saw will change the pressure on the grip handles and the quarter will fall to the floor when you move the trigger finger forward. The idea is to maintain uniform pressure.

right, i dry fire all of the time.

i cant dry fire simulate a 9mm round going off in my hand, and the associated errors i fear im doing during the recoil impulse that is causing the gun to return slightly left of where shot broke.

not sure if my verbage is confusing. im doing 3-6 round dumps on index cards at 7 yrd and every shot i have to basically re-aquire aim because the previous shot recoil tracks left. presumably something in my grip. my splits are 0.5-0.7

single shot dry fire does not really simulate the recoil impulse that im battling. and accuracy really isnt the issue, it's the speed , which is being hampered, i feel, by poor recoil control. which im trying to curtail

 

[johnfkingmatrix]

here is another possibility to consider. Using your finger gun take a two handed hold as you normally. Relax both hands but have them cupped as if you had the gun. Now squeeze your left hand and release. You may see your pointer finger angle to the left, off target, when you squeeze and return on target when you release. Try it several time adjusting your two handed grip with different squeeze pressure. You may see a different result but each time the pointer finger is going to move off target. If we add some recoil to move the pointer finger high it would emulate your recoil issue. This of course is an exaggeration of what may be occurring. If you are squeezing the left hand more with the left to help over come recoil, it may be pulling you off center. Could be, could not. Just a thought.

that truly makes sense, ill play with that. it stands to reason that either the left is pulling or right is pushing, and the shot breaking causes the pent up pressure to go to path of least resistance.

honestly, rather than trial and erroring every possibility, i was curious if it was a common occurrence/fix, as well as what would be considered close enough to straight up and down/muzzle rise if anyone actually uses those stats

 

[Scott-ak]

I am far from a pro that can give advice and/or coach. My trouble may have some similar. Bill drills track down and left. right handed and too much strong hand grip, classic problem. Thinking about what you describe, your sights are low and left after firing and ready to squeeze off the next round. Has your grip firmness between LH & RH momentarily changed as a result of the recoil? Are you forcing something?

 

[Steel Mover]

Compact guns tend to accentuate any problems a shooter may have in shooter consistency. this applies to grip pressure, trigger control, breath control, etc. One good thing is you realize you are having a fairly consistent control problem. Which translates to an ability to correct

Practice and more practice. A very simple exercise is to load three dummy rounds without powder, but with bullet and expended primer. Then mix in a mag with live ammo so you have no idea where the dummies are. The click rounds will show you a lot about what you are doing wrong and the dummy is then used for practice clearing a mis-fire.

 

[Eagle Six]

honestly, rather than trial and erroring every possibility, i was curious if it was a common occurrence/fix, as well as what would be considered close enough to straight up and down/muzzle rise if anyone actually uses those stats

Have you contacted Mantis? There may not be a common cause, again coaching over the internet is difficult because we can not see everything else that is going on and you cannot see it either, just an electronic device that is telling us something may be wrong. Perhaps they have a staff instructor that is familiar with the cause and effect. Are they of any help?

 

[Eagle Six]

Another question, do you reset the trigger?

 

[K22]

This may not be helpful or germane to the issue at hand or even applicable to the OP, but I just wanted to share my experience and thoughts on pistol craft having been involved in pistol shooting in various disciplines for over 50 years including 30 years of competitive shooting and training other beginners.

A few years ago, I encountered a relatively new shooter at the pistol range. He was shooting a custom made beautifully crafted 1911, 45 ACP. He was having a difficult time, even two-handed spraying shots all over the target.

When we changed targets and seeing my target he asked if I could help him figure out what was wrong with his new, top of the line pistol that he paid a lot of money for. Long story short, it wasn't his pistol or his ammo, it was him. I asked him if he had a 22 rimfire. No, this was his first pistol. I explained that starting pistol shooting with a 1911 is like going from high school to the NFL.

Bottom line, he needed to learn the basics of pistol marksmanship first. The best way to do that is with a 22 rimfire where you are not trying master the fundamentals and master the recoil at the same time. These fundamentals are transferable to any pistol shooting discipline that one may chose but are essential for long term success.

However, even if one does not have a rimfire to train with, the principle still applies. The best resource I ever read on the subject is the Army Pistol Marksmanship Guide which covers both slow fire and sustained fire sequences. While the focus is on NRA Bullseye match shooting, the principles apply to any shooting discipline. Also, a knowledgeable and experienced coach can be invaluable. He can see what you can't see and diagnose errors and propose corrections. I realize the latter is not always possible but if available, one should avail themselves to such resources.

 

[swd]

It may sound counterintuitive but practice dry firing weak handed 80%, strong hand 10%, free style 10%. Start off 25-30 shots a day and work up to 80-100 a day. Do it every day! After a week split it into 2 sessions, morning and evening. In a month you be absolutely amazed at the difference. The weak hand practice crosses over in your brain and will apply to your strong hand and free style. Back in my pistol shooting days in a field of 60-80 shooters I went from a mid pack to a top 3-5 finisher in about 3 months. Weak hand practice is the key to your brain learning trigger control and follow through.

 

[Forum Boss]

What is your dominant eye? If you are left-eye dominant but right handed, it's common to use a slight angle on the sights, and that can influence a low left sight return.

 

[D-4297]

Since I was taught to shoot pistol by my father , who just happened to be a multiple National and state Bullseye champion , he had me start with his High Standard .22 , and then progress to the .45 ACP's , after being solid with my mechanics , and scoring at what "HE" felt was acceptable . One of the things I learned along the way , was that "snatching" the trigger , was different from "jerking" the trigger . It was explained to me that "snatching" the trigger meant that the shooter was , "taking the slack out , and then after momentary pause , snatching the trigger back , either due to nerve impulse in the trigger finger , or anticipation of recoil . This will result a shot placement in the seven o'clock area almost 100% of the time .

he other Elephant in the room I haven't heard mentioned is Trigger pull weight . Don't know if there is a minimum on this now , but to heavy a trigger pull weight can also cause this same issue . My Glock .40 has a very light two lb. trigger pull weight , and I'm comfortable with it . It's what I learned with .

 

[johnfkingmatrix]

hmm thanks for input. i think i must have mis communicated what the problem is, so ill try again: im not missing, my shots are not going left and low.

while shooting 0.3-0.7 seconds splits depending on target distance/size anything from 2 round to mag dump, im impacting accurately.

the problem is that my sights are returning low and left after each shot and im having to basically re-aim during shot sequence. Ive been under the impression that if grip is correct after shot breaks, sights should naturally return to the spot they were before shot broke.thus setting me up.for faster split.

mantis recoil tracker further exemplifies this, as its showing recoil tracking straight up to apex, then returning back at a / angle. so the full recoil impulse looks like this /|

so hopefully this makes sense.

 

[johnfkingmatrix]

What is your dominant eye? If you are left-eye dominant but right handed, it's common to use a slight angle on the sights, and that can influence a low left sight return.

thanks. right eye dominant for certain

 

[johnfkingmatrix]

It may sound counterintuitive but practice dry firing weak handed 80%, strong hand 10%, free style 10%. Start off 25-30 shots a day and work up to 80-100 a day. Do it every day! After a week split it into 2 sessions, morning and evening. In a month you be absolutely amazed at the difference. The weak hand practice crosses over in your brain and will apply to your strong hand and free style. Back in my pistol shooting days in a field of 60-80 shooters I went from a mid pack to a top 3-5 finisher in about 3 months. Weak hand practice is the key to your brain learning trigger control and follow through.

agreed. that neural phenomenon is amazing. thanks

 

[johnfkingmatrix]

Have you contacted Mantis? There may not be a common cause, again coaching over the internet is difficult because we can not see everything else that is going on and you cannot see it either, just an electronic device that is telling us something may be wrong. Perhaps they have a staff instructor that is familiar with the cause and effect. Are they of any help?

thats actually a great idea, maybe i can get the info directly from them in regards to what i should be hoping to achieve.

and yes, resetting trigger during recoil. ill try not doing it a few times to isolate variable

 

[jdh47]

I am no great marksman with a pistol but I have experienced much the same result. When dry firing I noticed that when I pull the trigger my hand naturally moves down and left. I'm right-handed. When you squeeze your fist, it is a natural movement I suppose. I have to make a conscious effort to follow through and keep that from happening. The older I get the more maladroit I seem to get.

 

[Eagle Six]

thats actually a great idea, maybe i can get the info directly from them in regards to what i should be hoping to achieve.

and yes, resetting trigger during recoil. ill try not doing it a few times to isolate variable

We know that a faster cyclic rate can be obtained by rapidly slapping the trigger. We also know with few exceptions that will lead to poor hit performance. So, many use trigger reset as a means to better control the trigger movement during follow through and reduce the trigger travel on most of the sloppy triggers we use.

However I have found that in the process of developing trigger reset we can over compensate the trigger release pressure necessary to release the trigger and slow down our cyclic rate and/or influence the POA during the reset process. We can use trigger reset and achieve the desired follow through and do it very quickly. Many of my students learn trigger reset and once they can do it, they go on to other aspects of manipulation giving it very little thought. I have done the same in the past and I think from time to time we need to revisit exactly how we are doing and try to identify if we are in fact building the best habit with smooth and precise function. This is where any adverse pressure from the left or right caused by trigger placement can present undue influence and may effect POA. So, I think you isolating may be worth the trial.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

On the first squeeze/shot are you fighting to maintain your aim. Both eyes open, not concentrated on the sights since you are 2 hand combat practicing?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Smooth is fast and fast is smooth.

The run and gun games are not much about accuracy but are time vs accuracy. You can literally miss fast enough to win. If you're shooting all A's, you're shooting too slow. Alpha, Charlie is what you're looking for. Again, this is a scoring example of weighting time over accuracy. There's a good forum, or used to be...I haven't been on it in a long while. Search for Brian Enos forum. That's all those guys do and I think they can be a lot of help over there. It's very much about muscle memory and that comes only with serious practice time. I've never tuned your gun but use to work on several 1911's and Glocks for this type of shooting. Once you are quite proficient at it, you can tune the gun for subtleties and it may help a bit. I'd just guess the recoil spring might need to be a little lighter but that won't help if it's something you're doing and reliability is paramount in that style of shooting, too. I'd start by slowing down to a very comfortable speed and the extra speed will come with time. But remember, smooth is fast. If you watch the top shooters, it seems effortless. That's what you want but I really only know one way to get there...lots and lot and lots of practice.