how to fix this handgun recoil impulse (low left)

[johnfkingmatrix]

not sure if this is right spot, but:

put mantis x10 on handgun and i notice my recoil impulse is always returning low and left after shot breaks. which part of grip would most likely be the culprit? I've tried playing with wrist lock and more clam shell pressure but cant seem to cure it.
the stats are
ppq 9mm
~14° muzzle rise
~4° recoil width
the recovery time is anywhere from 0.1 - 0.3



the recoil path looks like an upside down V , returning on the left. what numbers should i be shooting for here, and, any grip tips to fix this issue?

thanks!

 

[Krogen]

I confess: I am a Bullseye shooter; an artifact of the past. Now we call it Precision Pistol. It's a challenge to say the least.

I think you could be anticipating recoil. I continually wrestle with this, even after a lot of years. Either I force the pistol downward in expectation of recoil (flinch!) or I overcompensate by relaxing before the shot breaks.

For me it's a mind thing. Grips have nothing to do with it. I have to think of my hand as if it were cast in concrete. I have to convince myself it's not movable except for the trigger finger. Hand locked in place. Mind over matter.

A huge help for me is a red dot sight. I can see where the dot is going relative to the target as I break the shot. If you can't see that, then you're blinking (aka flinching). Much like seeing the flash from a revolver or the slide moving on an auto. If you don't notice those things, you're eyes are closed during the shot. I've tried a Mantis, and it's pretty cool. Unfortunately you don't get the immediate feedback that you do with a red dot sight.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

Back in the day I had a pistol set up to dry fire and I practiced this every week to work on slight alinement though the shot process, I learned that from talking to a world class shooter. But I guess dry firing would not be acceptable in todays times

 

[Old Navy]

But I guess dry firing would not be acceptable in todays times
Why not? What ever works.

 

[K22]

Assume you are right-handed, correct?

I will assume this is not a mechanical problem with the optic.

You are pushing the shots low left which means you are pressing the right side of the trigger, not pressing the trigger straight back. In addition, thumb pressure and lack of uniform pressure applied by the lower three fingers would cause the shot to break low left. Anticipating recoil and dropping front sight will aggravate this also.

To correct this requires some work on your part. Take a blank sheet of paper, no bulls eye. Shoot one shot at a time concentrating of front sight focus, trigger press, and follow through.

Before you start shooting, check your natural point of aim and make sure you are aligned with the target, not twisting your body to place the firearm on target.

Your grip is vitally important to correct this problem. Do several dry fire sessions concentrating on the trigger press and uniform pressure of the lower three fingers, and thumb pressure. Your three lower fingers will try to increase pressure as you press the trigger. This must be avoided. You must apply uniform pressure to the stock with the lower three fingers and not increase pressure as you press the trigger. This is common error and requires practice to correct because it is physically a natural tendency.

Once you can group 10 to 20 shots in the center of a blank target you can return to a target with a bull's eye.

 

[johnfkingmatrix]

yes right handed. sorry for the confusion, and thanks for the input : this is in regards to follow up shots. my first shot and second shot etc are breaking cleanly and hitting POI/POA ,

im struggling to break .5 second split times on 3x5" cards at 8yd. my sights are not returning perfectly straight up and down after previous shot, theyre returning low and left . after the gun goes bang and muzzle rises, my sights are returning low/left of previous shot. ie not tracking straight up and down during recoil

-curious if anyone knows recoil width stats/muzzle rise stats that would be considered ideal for 9mm

 

[Eagle Six]

John, are you shooting with a two handed grip with an isosceles stance?

I prefer a firm even grip, with little to no influence from the thumb, pinky finger, or trigger finger, with relaxed arms and smooth wrist and develop a cadence that is enough to reestablish POA as a part of the trigger reset. With that, the recoil will shift left and I have to train my wrist to flex straight up inline with recoil as we will naturally favor the the muzzle movement left and especially if are overcompensating. Just a thought.

 

[K22]

yes right handed. sorry for the confusion, and thanks for the input : this is in regards to follow up shots. my first shot and second shot etc are breaking cleanly and hitting POI/POA ,

im struggling to break .5 second split times on 3x5" cards at 8yd. my sights are not returning perfectly straight up and down after previous shot, theyre returning low and left . after the gun goes bang and muzzle rises, my sights are returning low/left of previous shot. ie not tracking straight up and down during recoil

-curious if anyone knows recoil width stats/muzzle rise stats that would be considered ideal for 9mm

As Eagle Six mentioned, you have to develop a cadence, much like a bullseye shooter in time and rapid-fire stages. Because of the anatomical reaction to recoil, the sights will not automatically return to a perfect alignment on target or straight up and down. Depending on which is your shooting hand, the recoil will drive either up to the right or to the left. Improper stance, grip, trigger control will distort this even further.

You have to train yourself to recover from the recoil in sustained fire. This is a quote from the Army Marksmanship Pistol Guide: "if a shooter has a solid stance, correct natural position (point of aim), firm grip, wrist stiff, and elbow locked, the recovery is more natural..." Implicit in this is that you will be able to recover more quickly and align the sights in a more uniform manner.

In addition, the faster the shot sequence, the more trigger control comes in to play since there will a greater tendency to jerk the trigger.

With enough focused and purposeful practice, you develop a uniform rhythm. It will become natural once muscle memory is established.

 

[Flouncer]

Outstanding thread !! Thanks all that contribute. Watching.

 

[JMayo]

I was taught strong hand = happy hand.
weak hand firm grip.
I also shoot with my Finger in the trigger a bit not just the tip because i pushed too much when using the tip.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Right handed, left too much finger tip on trigger. Low part tightening fingers or jerking or slapping the trigger. Or combination of these.

 

[GotRDid]

Longtime former Bullseye Shooter from Precision Air Pistol, Rimfire and Centerfire, both Army and LEO.
Excellent thoughts/suggestions above.
I still return to my recoilless FWB Model 65 for refreshing my motor-memory on trigger control. Dry fire when I can’t even do that.
Keep us posted on your progress.

 

[Forum Boss]

The Walther PPQ you are shooting has interchangeable backstraps. Try a different backstrap.

Also do dry-firing with the inert (no powder or primer) Snap Caps: https://amzn.to/3QXMfD6

 

[johnfkingmatrix]

John, are you shooting with a two handed grip with an isosceles stance?

I prefer a firm even grip, with little to no influence from the thumb, pinky finger, or trigger finger, with relaxed arms and smooth wrist and develop a cadence that is enough to reestablish POA as a part of the trigger reset. With that, the recoil will shift left and I have to train my wrist to flex straight up inline with recoil as we will naturally favor the the muzzle movement left and especially if are overcompensating. Just a thought.

right handed two hand grip, feet slightly wider than shoulder width, right toe ~inline with left midfoot. that makes sense anatomically that if the left wrist isnt properly flexed, the recoil may be taking path of least resistance and ending low left.

 

[johnfkingmatrix]

As Eagle Six mentioned, you have to develop a cadence, much like a bullseye shooter in time and rapid-fire stages. Because of the anatomical reaction to recoil, the sights will not automatically return to a perfect alignment on target or straight up and down. Depending on which is your shooting hand, the recoil will drive either up to the right or to the left. Improper stance, grip, trigger control will distort this even further.

this is the heart of th matter. i was under the impression that, if done properly, following recoil the sights should fall back into the exact spot they were before last shot broke? and something about my grip is preventing this

 

[johnfkingmatrix]

The Walther PPQ you are shooting has interchangeable backstraps. Try a different backstrap.

Also do dry-firing with the inert (no powder or primer) Snap Caps: https://amzn.to/3QXMfD6


View attachment 1470798

thanks. im referring to after a shot breaks in multiple shot engagements, the front sight tracks straight up and then fall low left rather than straight up and down. shots arent missing, but its costing me time on follow up shots to have to re-aquire sight alignment between shots, when i was under the impression that ideally it should be rising and falling pretty consistently up and down.
im assuming the left wrist cant/lock is maybe the culprit, was wondering about diagnosing this issue

not sure how to dryfire train the recoil impulse


////
in regards to comments about trigger finger. is it being suggested that after a shot breaks and hits poa=poi, my trigger finger is causing the gun to return low left during recoil? to be clear, im not having accuracy issues/pushing shots.


thanks to all.for continuing input

 

[K22]

this is the heart of th matter. i was under the impression that, if done properly, following recoil the sights should fall back into the exact spot they were before last shot broke? and something about my grip is preventing this

Any unnatural grip in an attempt to mitigate recoil will result in a less harmonious outcome. You can't fight against the natural reaction to a recoiling pistol. What you do is learn to control it and develop a cadence to get back on target in a timely rhythm. As mentioned in my previous post, those elements outlined in the Army Marksmanship Guide establish a stance and hold baseline.

I shot NRA precision pistol for 30 years and it takes a practice to develop proficiency in sustained fire. Of course, the proper stocks that fix your hand help. I used Herrett custom made stocks that were custom made to fit my hand. They had a recoil horn on top and an extended palm rest on the bottom, locking my hand into place. But even those custom-made stocks did not change the natural reaction of the recoil, it merely kept my hand from shifting. It helped but I still had to, through practice, develop a cadence and master all the other fundamentals of precision pistol shooting. There just isn't any short cut to structured and focused practice.

 

[Eagle Six]

right handed two hand grip, feet slightly wider than shoulder width, right toe ~inline with left midfoot. that makes sense anatomically that if the left wrist isnt properly flexed, the recoil may be taking path of least resistance and ending low left.

here is another possibility to consider. Using your finger gun take a two handed hold as you normally. Relax both hands but have them cupped as if you had the gun. Now squeeze your left hand and release. You may see your pointer finger angle to the left, off target, when you squeeze and return on target when you release. Try it several time adjusting your two handed grip with different squeeze pressure. You may see a different result but each time the pointer finger is going to move off target. If we add some recoil to move the pointer finger high it would emulate your recoil issue. This of course is an exaggeration of what may be occurring. If you are squeezing the left hand more with the left to help over come recoil, it may be pulling you off center. Could be, could not. Just a thought.

 

[K22]

not sure how to dryfire train the recoil impulse

Dry firing can be a very productive endeavor. What you are trying to do is develop a uniform stance, grip, trigger control, sight alignment, breath control and getting the shot off in a timely manner.

Another exercise our instructor used to demonstrate the effect of the bottom three fingers is to use one of those spring hand exercisers. Close the handles and insert a quarter at bottom of the handles. While holding the exerciser closed, close your eyes and work your trigger finger back and forth. Every new shooter and some experienced shooters I ever saw will change the pressure on the grip handles and the quarter will fall to the floor when you move the trigger finger forward. The idea is to maintain uniform pressure.

 

[johnfkingmatrix]

. There just isn't any short cut to structured and focused practice.

thanks,

im making sure im not practicing a bad habit, which i started wondering about when i noticed this issue. which is why i posted question