How The World's Finest Shotguns Are Made
- Thread starter LVLAaron
- Start date
xr650rRider
Silver $$ Contributor
Pretty nice ones made right here in U.S.A.
Connecticut Shotgun
They also make some .45 Colts that are nicer than the originals. A different division in same building.
Standard manufacturing
Connecticut Shotgun
They also make some .45 Colts that are nicer than the originals. A different division in same building.
Standard manufacturing
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The engraver said a month and a half of work to engrave that double rifle
so approximately 240 hours labor on the engraving only. The engraving on that
rifle is probably 40K.
Edit: price
so approximately 240 hours labor on the engraving only. The engraving on that
rifle is probably 40K.
Edit: price
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mike mccormick
Silver $$ Contributor
I think that's starting price. Embellishments are extra
Krieghoff engraving pricing.
jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
I like the part about taking a block and hand filing it down to a perfect rectangular cube.
When I was young, (long ago in a galaxy far away), my Dad gave me three strips of steel about 12 inch’s long and 1/4 inch wide. He told me to make a perfect straight edge using nothing but files.
I did a little reading in one of his old machinist books from way back when, and it did indeed say that it was possible to make a perfect straight edge if you got three pieces to match using just files and scrapers. If all three matched each other, they had to be straight.
Sounded easy. Well, it wasn’t.
But after about two weeks working on them each day after school, I did it. The good thing about doing this, is you end up with three perfect straight edges.
My Dad told me that when he went to work in a Rail Road Repair shop when he was about 13, an older machinist gave him the same challenge.
This video helped me remember that. Thanks.
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About 40 years ago, a fellow brought in a fine English sidelock double, a10 gauge, for cleaning. It had been made for him by two brothers in London, the name was Wilkinson or Wilkerson, or maybe just Wilkes (the memory fades). Anyway, this gun had set him back about 22,000 pounds (about 35,000 dollars, I think). It was beyond beautiful. He had brought it in for me to clean it and, if I'm being honest, I wasn't sure I wanted to touch it, let alone take it apart. Nonetheless, I did the job. I had to grind new screwdrivers in order to take the locks off. A little later, the same guy brought in a 20 gauge, made by the same brothers. He told me he had a problem with a sticky ejector on the right hand barrel. He had called the shop in London and told them of the issue and told them he would bring the gun with him on his next trip. The next morning, he got a call from the daughter of one of the brothers (I think it was John). She said he was on his way and would be landing in Calgary that afternoon. She wondered if he could use my shop to look at the gun. I said sure.
That afternoon, a dapper looking elderly man (early 80's, I suppose. Seemed elderly to me at the time) showed up at the shop. He removed his hat and coat. Had those elastic gaiters to hold his sleeves up and wore a visor. He opened up a toolbag and rolled out some tools (files and screwdrivers mostly) on the bench. He made a new ejector spring for the gun (a vee spring), hardened and tempered it. He then put it in the gun and tested it. He rolled up his tools, thanked me for the use of the shop, and went out the door. The whole experience was almost surreal.
Every single piece of those guns was handmade and every single piece was flawless (except for that offending spring, which John broke in half and threw in the trash). Flat surfaces were perfectly flat. There wasn't a file mark or scratch anywhere.
The late Martin Hagn was another man I knew who was capable of such work. He would show me how he did a given job and I would think, Hell, I can do that. In my dreams. Now and then, he would have me do something for him; just throwing me a bone. He would ask me questions when I'm sure he knew the answer better than I did.
I think we have gunmakers and 'smiths in America who are probably capable of doing this work, but it certainly isn't common. I think it is rare to have the skills and the knowledge together. I know, when that old gentleman was in my shop, I was seeing something special. WH
That afternoon, a dapper looking elderly man (early 80's, I suppose. Seemed elderly to me at the time) showed up at the shop. He removed his hat and coat. Had those elastic gaiters to hold his sleeves up and wore a visor. He opened up a toolbag and rolled out some tools (files and screwdrivers mostly) on the bench. He made a new ejector spring for the gun (a vee spring), hardened and tempered it. He then put it in the gun and tested it. He rolled up his tools, thanked me for the use of the shop, and went out the door. The whole experience was almost surreal.
Every single piece of those guns was handmade and every single piece was flawless (except for that offending spring, which John broke in half and threw in the trash). Flat surfaces were perfectly flat. There wasn't a file mark or scratch anywhere.
The late Martin Hagn was another man I knew who was capable of such work. He would show me how he did a given job and I would think, Hell, I can do that. In my dreams. Now and then, he would have me do something for him; just throwing me a bone. He would ask me questions when I'm sure he knew the answer better than I did.
I think we have gunmakers and 'smiths in America who are probably capable of doing this work, but it certainly isn't common. I think it is rare to have the skills and the knowledge together. I know, when that old gentleman was in my shop, I was seeing something special. WH
LVLAaron
Gold $$ Contributor
I knew someone would appreciate that! Was probably my favorite part.
ELR LVR
Silver $$ Contributor
It is very cool, the methods they use to make fine shotguns
At one point I wanted to learn how to do engraving
I figured maybe if I start now then I may have something to do when I retire.
There is a local shotgun gun club within an hour of me that listed an engraver guy on site
So I called and asked if I could stop by and learn some things.
I figured if even I could just watch him engrave for awhile that would be a good experience.
He had an antique shotgun action in the vise he was restoring that had been sunk in a pond or something.
I knew nothing about the tools, the special vise etc.
Mainly I wanted to learn the technique of the balance it takes when hand engraving
needless to say I learned enough in 1 hour to know I would not become an engraver.
-------------------
The fine balance of digging in and being able to move along without going to deep and sticking, like riding a bicycle is dependent on the quality of and how well your tool is sharpened
I learned How he does Gold inlay, scroll work, how to transfer a pattern to the work piece.
How to color in with the correct type of ink for a black background etc.
The time required to learn how to engrave is long, I think he said 5 years as an apprentice before they let you work on their fine guns.
When I asked where he got his experience he said he was an engraver for Purdey before coming to the US
The closest competitor to Holland & Holland
His name is Dale Tate
and was a very nice gentleman to even allow me to stop by for some time and just observe
--------------------------------------------------------
I'd never heard of Purdey but had heard of Holland & Holland so I googled it when I got back
and was stunned
First stunned I met such an accomplished engraver right near me who had worked for a famous company.
Secondly the amount of time they put into making a shotgun
One of the things that impressed me the most was the finish they get on their wood
I found a vid once but cannot find it again showing how at one point in the process of polishing the wood
after shaping and sanding and all the initial work then they....
They rub it down with a cloth embedded with Diatomacious Earth
FOR 2 WEEKS! which fills in pores and further polishes it.
Just each dang step involved is perfection.
---------------------------------------------------------
Then I saw the prices of those guns
$25K is a steal and 1/10th of those Holland&Holland and Purdey guns
---------------------------------------------------------
I started practicing on a scrap piece of steel,
I had been practicing on Brass thinking it should be soft and forgiving
The Guy kind of laughed when I told him that and said "No, you cant use brass, it work hardens, you'd have to at least anneal it first, use steel, its the closest thing"
So I learned from him how to use a file to make a perfectly smooth finish (Big Step for me)
WITHOUT using sandpaper/this is your clean slate to start with
I then learned how to sharpen the gravers
Once I was able to do work on a flat piece such as making oak leaves, scrolls, initials etc
I then went to something round, and old 22 rifle barrel
And gave up, lol, there is so much time to learn how to engrave that alone is worth bucks on a gun.
Big difference from me and a Purdey Engraver
At one point I wanted to learn how to do engraving
I figured maybe if I start now then I may have something to do when I retire.
There is a local shotgun gun club within an hour of me that listed an engraver guy on site
So I called and asked if I could stop by and learn some things.
I figured if even I could just watch him engrave for awhile that would be a good experience.
He had an antique shotgun action in the vise he was restoring that had been sunk in a pond or something.
I knew nothing about the tools, the special vise etc.
Mainly I wanted to learn the technique of the balance it takes when hand engraving
needless to say I learned enough in 1 hour to know I would not become an engraver.
-------------------
The fine balance of digging in and being able to move along without going to deep and sticking, like riding a bicycle is dependent on the quality of and how well your tool is sharpened
I learned How he does Gold inlay, scroll work, how to transfer a pattern to the work piece.
How to color in with the correct type of ink for a black background etc.
The time required to learn how to engrave is long, I think he said 5 years as an apprentice before they let you work on their fine guns.
When I asked where he got his experience he said he was an engraver for Purdey before coming to the US
The closest competitor to Holland & Holland
His name is Dale Tate
and was a very nice gentleman to even allow me to stop by for some time and just observe
--------------------------------------------------------
I'd never heard of Purdey but had heard of Holland & Holland so I googled it when I got back
and was stunned
First stunned I met such an accomplished engraver right near me who had worked for a famous company.
Secondly the amount of time they put into making a shotgun
One of the things that impressed me the most was the finish they get on their wood
I found a vid once but cannot find it again showing how at one point in the process of polishing the wood
after shaping and sanding and all the initial work then they....
They rub it down with a cloth embedded with Diatomacious Earth
FOR 2 WEEKS! which fills in pores and further polishes it.
Just each dang step involved is perfection.
---------------------------------------------------------
Then I saw the prices of those guns
$25K is a steal and 1/10th of those Holland&Holland and Purdey guns
---------------------------------------------------------
I started practicing on a scrap piece of steel,
I had been practicing on Brass thinking it should be soft and forgiving
The Guy kind of laughed when I told him that and said "No, you cant use brass, it work hardens, you'd have to at least anneal it first, use steel, its the closest thing"
So I learned from him how to use a file to make a perfectly smooth finish (Big Step for me)
WITHOUT using sandpaper/this is your clean slate to start with
I then learned how to sharpen the gravers
Once I was able to do work on a flat piece such as making oak leaves, scrolls, initials etc
I then went to something round, and old 22 rifle barrel
And gave up, lol, there is so much time to learn how to engrave that alone is worth bucks on a gun.
Big difference from me and a Purdey Engraver
Attachments
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ELR LVR
Silver $$ Contributor
Here is a cool link to how Purdey shotguns are made
It says all engravers are tested before being allowed to work on their guns
and only the Best, pass. I believe that after what I saw
www.purdey.com
It says all engravers are tested before being allowed to work on their guns
and only the Best, pass. I believe that after what I saw
Stages Of Gunmaking
Founded in 1814, James Purdey & Sons, or simply Purdey, are renowned for bespoke sporting shotguns and rifles, and luxurious clothing and accessories.
www.purdey.com
ELR LVR
Silver $$ Contributor
Handmade.
I think every one will appreciate this video.
Especially if you've ever handmade any of your own parts
I hope this vid never gets taken down off Youtube, it is historic.
It is a nice hour long vid detailing almost every aspect of handmaking a gun
Hand made screws, hand drilled holes, no power drills etc.
When I think of the guns I make, as accurate as they are, but then watch this vid
All I think is "I'm not worthy"
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Greg@wfcustom
Gold $$ Contributor
I actually have a VCR (!) copy of this somewhere that I should probably find and put on digital. It was given to me way back in the day by my welding instructor (fellow gun nut) when I was taking the Machine Tech night course at the local JC in the early 80’s. Great video!!
G
G
ELR LVR
Silver $$ Contributor
Definitely put it on DVD, VCR's are hard to find now lol
If you do, I'd be interested
Greg@wfcustom
Gold $$ Contributor
Just because I like admiring fine art I will never own, I am on their e-mail drip. To the point above if you have to ask you can’t afford it. Some of the wood on their shotguns is so far beyond beautiful it should be a crime.Here is a cool link to how Purdey shotguns are made
It says all engravers are tested before being allowed to work on their guns
and only the Best, pass. I believe that after what I saw
Stages Of Gunmaking
Founded in 1814, James Purdey & Sons, or simply Purdey, are renowned for bespoke sporting shotguns and rifles, and luxurious clothing and accessories.
I did buy one of their ball caps though! LOL
G
ELR LVR
Silver $$ Contributor
I know right?
What interests me most is many of the techniques that become lost technology over time.
Which is one reaon why even though I may never own one neither.
I like at least knowing the process they used to get the finishes etc.
-------------
It's like back in the day they used to use Whale Oil for Temper quenching and Colt used it way back in their bluing process etc. (Like Those deeeep blued 1911's we sometimes see)
----------
Here is where I got that info from for their Mirror like Royal Blue Finish
Post #3
Bluing was accomplished via heat and smoke: they placed a rack of 8 revolvers into a gas furnace along with sperm whale!! oil.
Old Colt Blue
I have always thought the old Colt BLUE bluing to be truly beautiful. Even people I know who favored it never could achieve that color in their work. I know rust bluing can be spectacular, but don't know if that was part of it. Anyone know how it was done?
I guess over time Colt figured it was too troublesome to have a Finish so Unique to everyone elses and not worth the trouble anymore, plus Whaling being banned.
Meaning we will never get guns like that again, even if people are willing to Pay
--------------
I would also hazard a guess that whale oil being so abundant way back when, that is one reason certin Knives and Swords also cannot be duplicated in their quality of tempering (for old steel anyway)
It was probably just the common method everyone used, but today we're trying to figure out how.
"Based on what WE know and what WE have."
Well if a guy did not know that, he could never duplicate it, or at least know why he could not duplicate it.
That Williamsburg Vid in the whole scheme of history Timeline is actually recent
But will be lost knowledge soon with all of our "power everything"
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