How much performance difference between a Rem 700 action and a custom?

[mikegaiz]

I just bought two more Nesika actions this month. Have 6, my first were made in Wa. in the late 90's. Second two 2010 when they moved to SD, I haven't seen any quality drop. The Nesika Classic is amazing. That is just my opinion. I like them, I also have Stolle , Sako, and Bat.

 

[boltman223]

Get a Remington, have the lugs lapped and the face trued.

I see post like this on here quite often ( referring to getting the face trued) in the context that it is a performance enhancer. So I have to ask, what is the theory behind this? Also, what is the effect of truing the face but, not the threads to the face also? Is this really a performance enhancer or could it cause a whole other problem? Sorry for the hijack but, I thought it might pertain since it was suggested to the OP. Also I have a little curiosity myself.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Get a Remington, have the lugs lapped and the face trued.

I see post like this on here quite often ( referring to getting the face trued) in the context that it is a performance enhancer. So I have to ask, what is the theory behind this? Also, what is the effect of truing the face but, not the threads to the face also? Is this really a performance enhancer or could it cause a whole other problem? Sorry for the hijack but, I thought it might pertain since it was suggested to the OP. Also I have a little curiosity myself.

Squaring the face of the receiver will allow the tenon shoulder to seat against action and get barrel in line with bore. If the threads are not trued up, the threads must be cut undersized to allow them to "float" so that the tenon shoulder will contact the action face 100% when tightened.

But, if you are going through the trouble of squaring up the face, might as well single point cut the threads and true them up at the same time.

 

[carlsbad]

Not a big fan of custom actions for accuracy improvement. The action just doesn't have much, if any, effect on accuracy assuming it is bedded (doesn't bend), holds the bolt repeatably behind the cartridge and delivers the firing pin reliably. It's up to the barrel to do the heavy lifting.

even less of a fan of blueprinting a Remington action for accuracy. This leaves you with and action with bastard threads on it. If you want to use a Remington action, square off the face if it needs it and lap the lugs. Go to town.

That said. I am a fan of custom actions for cosmetics, fit and finish, smooth action, choice of feed positions, etc. The difference in cost between a Remington and a custom action isn't much when you're building a $4000 rifle. it's significant if you're building a basic rifle to shoot straight.

It isn't at all unusual to see Remington actions beating guys with custom actions.

So make your choice based on budget and preference and focus on the barrel for accuracy.

--Jerry

 

[GSPV]

It isn't at all unusual to see Remington actions beating guys with custom actions.

That depends on the game and the level in the game.

I'd invite anyone to look at the equipment list at the Super Shoot or any other national-level benchrest match...short range or long range..., and see how many factory Remington actions there are. Not how many custom actions that the factory Remington beat, but how many are there at all.

If you want another comparison, try to dig up scores for factory class in UBR and compare that to the custom class. Are there occasional top factories that beat some customs? Sure. But average the top scores and see for yourself.

Sure, I think the barrel is the most important thing. But to claim that a factory Remington is going to hang with a custom consistently, with no caveats? Well, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

[nosualc]

You have to decide if a dimensionally correct rifle action is important to you.

For a competition rifle, where the difference between winning and losing may be a single point or a single X, I believe going the extra mile is worth it. If I drop a point I need to know it was my fault, not my equipment. Others may disagree. That's OK.

For a less exacting purpose (e.g. a hunting rifle) it is less important.

If you decide that it is important to you, I don't see the logic of buying a cheaper action and then paying somebody to "fix" it.

First, the difference in money is not great. When you add the cost of the action, the cost of "blueprinting" it, and the time/effort required to get things done, that the costs are likely close to the same.

Second, you are taking a leap of faith that whoever you pay to "blueprint" your action, will do the job correctly. It is beyond my ability to do it myself or verify that somebody else did it correctly.

Third, in the end the result is a modified, or "bastardized" factory action. It will have far less resale than what you've paid for it.

Fourth, custom actions are more than just "true" factory Remington actions. They offer smoother function, special options, better fit and finish, etc.

-nosualc

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

The difference in performance is small, but shows up in the AGGING ability of the rifle more so than smallest group, etc. Reason being, smoother operation and less upset of the rifle in the rest. It makes for faster strings and more consistent bag shape and settling. This shows up at the end of the day, week, month or season, but it will show up eventually.


Also, if you do all that's needed to PROPERLY set up a factory Remington, without any shortcuts in making it all it can be, you'll wind up with basically the same money in it when all is factored in,...sometimes MORE, than a custom. That brings us to resale value. The customs average about DOUBLE the price, all else equal. That alone makes re-working a factory action an exercise in futility IMHO. While some may disagree, keep in mind, I do this for a living and make more money truing up your Remington than using a custom, where it's done when it leaves the maker. That said, even customs aren't all perfect...they should be, but aren't at times. So buy the best and cry once. There's not enough difference in price to cut corners on the action. Borden, Bat, Kelbly's all make great actions.
The Nesikas were not without issues, mostly due to timing of the closing cams and extractor cam. It can be fixed pretty easily, but is an issue that a custom action shouldn't have in the first place. Same can be said of the small Bats that had very marginal ignition, IMHO.--Mike Ezell

 

[GSPV]

Keep in mind that my post was in response to a post that, taken in total, seems to say that the action doesn't matter. That an unmodified Remington is the equal of a custom. That's where I'm coming from.

 

[mikegaiz]

This blog and Colt have a lot in common, here everyone's comments are equal. The fact is they are not equal!!!!! But, who is right? and who is just beating their gums with nothing to back it up. ???

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

This blog and Colt have a lot in common, here everyone's comments are equal. The fact is they are not equal!!!!! But, who is right? and who is just beating their gums with nothing to back it up. ???

You'll need to be more specific for some of us.

 

[butchlambert]

Posted by Mike Ezell.

The Nesikas were not without issues, mostly due to timing of the closing cams and extractor cam. It can be fixed pretty easily, but is an issue that a custom action shouldn't have in the first place

Mike is correct. My early one was sold to me cheaply because the fellow had troubles with it. Probably around 1996 or 7. Had the same bolt timing problems. Nesika worked on it a couple times and it was still not right. One of our better known smiths said he could fix it. His solution was to put a heavy and long bolt knob on it! What a joke!!! If I had of known Dan Armstrong, he would have fixed it. Evidently gunsmiths in that era was unaware of bolt timing. After a year and a half of heart ache and money, it went down the road.

Isn't Nesika part of Dakota that is owned by Remington?

 

[mao0720]

They are now, yes.

 

[kentcroy]

Several years ago, when I decided to build an "ultimate" long range rifle for NRA prone competition I looked around and settled on what looked to be the best action I could get, and Bruno's had one in stock, a Stolli Grizzly II, RB RP RE, and at $1100 it was the most I'd ever spent on a rifle component. I bought a Broughton 5C medium Palma contour in 7mm, and had it chambered in Remington 280 AI. Carl Bernosky did the stock work. In the end, after spending just around $3000, I can say it was totally worth every penny. Awesome acuracy, 1/4 min at 200yds using 180gr JLK VLDs WS2 coated, at 2950fps, with a published BC of .730, but may be closer to .680, it holds the X-ring really well at 600 yrds. Do I regret spending that much on a rifle that shoots better than me, not for one second!
Kent

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Posted by Mike Ezell.

The Nesikas were not without issues, mostly due to timing of the closing cams and extractor cam. It can be fixed pretty easily, but is an issue that a custom action shouldn't have in the first place

Mike is correct. My early one was sold to me cheaply because the fellow had troubles with it. Probably around 1996 or 7. Had the same bolt timing problems. Nesika worked on it a couple times and it was still not right. One of our better known smiths said he could fix it. His solution was to put a heavy and long bolt knob on it! What a joke!!! If I had of known Dan Armstrong, he would have fixed it. Evidently gunsmiths in that era was unaware of bolt timing. After a year and a half of heart ache and money, it went down the road.

Isn't Nesika part of Dakota that is owned by Remington?

Thanks Butch! Not to pick on or say that the Nesikas were bad, because they weren't and aren't. They are good actions and can shoot with anything...but another issue they fought was with the bolts being too soft and/or just being too similar in hardness to the action itself. Because of this, they were more prone to galling. I had a Borden TPE that galled, even with what most would consider proper car and lubrication. I think these were some of the reasons why they don't resell like a Bat or Kelbly action, overall.


Jim Borden and/or Chad Dixon, who is a member here, would be very qualified to address questions regarding the Nesika actions. Borden contracted with them to build some of his actions for a while and Chad worked for them. I consider Jim Borden's actions top of the food chain, FWIW, with Bat, Kelbly and Stiller actions to be right there with them. There are customs that I'd prefer a trued Remington to...and won't call them by name. I guess some should form opinions on their own, and often, they won't know the difference or what separates one from another...and they'll be happy with most. We are blessed to have as many choices as we do in top notch actions made by people that know what time it is...and at a price that makes custom actions the best value overall vs a trued factory action, IMHO.---Mike Ezell


The original question was about the value of a custom vs a trued Remington. I hope the op has the info he needs to make a decision that is an informed one without being led astray for whatever reason. Much of what you get when comparing customs is opinion based on limited experience, be it good or bad. For the most part, the customs are very good and better than a factory action from both a quality and monetary standpoint. The thing about someone like myself, is that I get to see multiples of most every make and am not biased except based on the quality and features that I like to see in a custom action. I have the benefit of seeing, working on, and shooting most all of them and have no alengence to any of them. If I had any interest one way or the other, it would be to sell someone on me truing their factory action. But instead, you get my honest opinion as to what is really the best and smartest way to go, in spite of my not making money to do so. And, I have tried to convey my opinion along with information that backs it up. If someone chooses not to believe what I have said here, I regret that they still feel that way not to Most individuals mean well and hold valuable input as to their likes and dislikes to actions that they have experience with as well. So certainly, don't dismiss their opinions, too.--Mike Ezell

 

[mikegaiz]

gunsandgunsmithing, you just explained what I was referring to about this blog and Colt being equal. some replies are just here say vs actual hands on (knowledgeable) experience. and yet they have the same weight if you don't know what credentials a replier has.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

gunsandgunsmithing, you just explained what I was referring to about this blog and Colt being equal. some replies are just here say vs actual hands on (knowledgeable) experience. and yet they have the same weight if you don't know what credentials a replier has.

I agree. That's the thing about internet forums, though. As I said, limited experience is still more valuable than no experience, but it's hard to tell the difference between those who have had most of them and those that simply praise what they are experienced with. It's very similar to gunsmith work...Many simply don't know the difference between good work and a hack job, and are happy with what they paid hard earned money for, simply because it still might be the best they have experience with.

 

[tenring]

Some of the Nesikas made by Dakota weren't as high in quality as the originals. It's kind of a Remington clone that isn't. It also has an odd way of removing the firing pin. Otherwise they're great actions still used by some great shooters.

I put a BR rifle together 10 years ago on a Nesika action. I chose it because of the "Borden bumps". It is very smooth and very accurate. It definitely is not a Rem clone.

My first BR action was a Hall; no longer available, but nevertheless a VG action. Then I got a brainstorm to accurize a Rem 700 SA for BR. One of the best smiths in the country built it as a 6BR. It is now a Dasher. You name it, everything possible has been done to the rifle, and it still is not competitive. Even a tuner did not help I have invested so far about $2,500 + in this gun and finally gave up on it. A good custom action would have been more effective and less costly.

 

[dkhunt14]

The thing I like about the custom is you can get what you want, right bolt left port, Dual port, or right right. Another thing on a REM the cutout on top goes way up and over the top. A custom would be stronger because of the cutout and support a heavy barrel better. They also open and close easier. Matt

 

[boltman223]

Some of the Nesikas made by Dakota weren't as high in quality as the originals. It's kind of a Remington clone that isn't. It also has an odd way of removing the firing pin. Otherwise they're great actions still used by some great shooters.

I put a BR rifle together 10 years ago on a Nesika action. I chose it because of the "Borden bumps". It is very smooth and very accurate. It definitely is not a Rem clone.

My first BR action was a Hall; no longer available, but nevertheless a VG action. Then I got a brainstorm to accurize a Rem 700 SA for BR. One of the best smiths in the country built it as a 6BR. It is now a Dasher. You name it, everything possible has been done to the rifle, and it still is not competitive. Even a tuner did not help I have invested so far about $2,500 + in this gun and finally gave up on it. A good custom action would have been more effective and less costly.

How do you know it wasn't the barrel?

 

[dkhunt14]

Not a big fan of custom actions for accuracy improvement. The action just doesn't have much, if any, effect on accuracy assuming it is bedded (doesn't bend), holds the bolt repeatably behind the cartridge and delivers the firing pin reliably. It's up to the barrel to do the heavy lifting.

e

That said. I am a fan of custom actions for cosmetics, fit and finish, smooth action, choice of feed positions, etc.

It isn't at all unusual to see Remington actions beating guys with custom actions.

So make your choice based on budget and preference and focus on the barrel for accuracy.

--Jerry

Fire control, how rigid the action is, the alignment of the bolt and how straight everything is has a lot to do with accuracy. The barrel hangs on the action and needs to hold everything straight and secure. Unless you Barrel block the barrel. There also isn't very many Remingtons beating custom actions. If that were true benchresters would be shooting Remingtons. There is no comparison between them. Also it you look what you can buy a custom used Remington for and what a true custom actioned gun sells for there is a big difference on money spent verses money Invested. It depends on purpose of gun and how much you want to spend but the custom is better. matt