how much am i giving up extruded/double base etc

[johnfkingmatrix]

I have not been able to find the specific answer :

how much accuracy am i giving up by using a spherical double base powder such as ramshot hunter vs 4350 in my 142g 6.5cm, or varget vs 2520 in 69g .223?

from what ive gathered extruded single base are more consistent due to the potential variability in the nitroglycerin vs nitrocellulose ratio used in double.. or something? :s

This makes sense lot to lot, but, if i just buy an 8Lb jug and shake it vigorously isnt this spherical double base essentially as homogeneous/ accurate as anything else until I switch jugs?

Can someone explain what im gaining by paying 100$ more per 8lb in these scenarios?

are we taking purely variance lot to lot... variance within the same jug etc? and if so what kind of moa variance - would i only notice it in benchest etc

thanks so much!

 

[Kracken McGraw]

I don’t get the shaking up part, because that’s not necessary. I doubt your giving up much accuracy if you’re rifle liked it.

 

[Doom]

Single base powders tend to be less sensitive to powder temperature changes than the double based spherical powders and also tend to be more consistent burning and easier to ignite. I don't know you give up much accuracy wise but you do give up some degree of consistency in velocity. What the end effect is for you will depend on what temperature extremes you shoot in and at what distances. Here in the southeast if I were to load a near max load for 20 degree winter weather I would have to reduce the charge for a 95 degree summer day.

 

[johnfkingmatrix]

Single base powders tend to be less sensitive to powder temperature changes than the double based spherical powders and also tend to be more consistent burning and easier to ignite. I don't know you give up much accuracy wise but you do give up some degree of consistency in velocity. What the end effect is for you will depend on what temperature extremes you shoot in and at what distances. Here in the southeast if I were to load a near max load for 20 degree winter weather I would have to reduce the charge for a 95 degree summer day.

most of what im doing is trying to build target loads for 1k yd in mojave and mornings can be 70 and then hit 105. A lot of the time its just 95 all day.

i see most pros gravitating towards single base and was wondering if thats something that is necessary for me to spend on, or if I wouldn't notice the difference.

correct me if im wrong: it seems that youre saying if temp is stable then shot to shot difference will be unnoticeable?
if a 30 degree swing throughout the session or a cloud floating over is going to result in constantly increasing/decreasing velocity then yeah that sounds like a nightmare

it comes down purely to temp sensitivity?

 

[Konocti's Wigwam]

I'm curious what others say. I had a lb. of H4350 and a lb. of IMR 4350 which I was loading last night for 6.5CM. But looking at the Hodgdon site, they now get $61/lb or $434/8lb ($54/lb)

The Ramshot is like $38-$45/lb and $172-$320/8lb, so that's a substantial difference in cost.

What I can say about it is that to me the 4350 looks like small Varget, which never metered very well for me on a Dillon. But even given that, I was getting about 3-4 out of 10 throws going .1 grain over with 4350, so I re-threw those. I haven't tried Varget in the Chargemaster yet, but I do like the powder.

Which Ramshot do you use? Do you use Competition?

 

[Tangent]

As I understand it, many prefer single base due to it being easier on barrels than double base, rather than consistency.

 

[jelenko]

most of what im doing is trying to build target loads for 1k yd in mojave and mornings can be 70 and then hit 105. A lot of the time its just 95 all day.

i see most pros gravitating towards single base and was wondering if thats something that is necessary for me to spend on, or if I wouldn't notice the difference.

correct me if im wrong: it seems that youre saying if temp is stable then shot to shot difference will be unnoticeable?
if a 30 degree swing throughout the session or a cloud floating over is going to result in constantly increasing/decreasing velocity then yeah that sounds like a nightmare

it comes down purely to temp sensitivity?

Here's an article on the topic. Scoll down a bit and they provide three examples of temp stability for single base and double base powders.
https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/temperature-effects-gunpowder/389257#replay

 

[Doom]

most of what im doing is trying to build target loads for 1k yd in mojave and mornings can be 70 and then hit 105. A lot of the time its just 95 all day.

i see most pros gravitating towards single base and was wondering if thats something that is necessary for me to spend on, or if I wouldn't notice the difference.

correct me if im wrong: it seems that youre saying if temp is stable then shot to shot difference will be unnoticeable?
if a 30 degree swing throughout the session or a cloud floating over is going to result in constantly increasing/decreasing velocity then yeah that sounds like a nightmare

it comes down purely to temp sensitivity?

As @Tangent mentioned reported barrel wear is greater with Double base powder but the real issue is handling the temperature/velocity differences that can occur with swings in temperature like you mentioned. I would have to look but I think most of the traditional spherical powders varied about 1.5 to 2 fps per degree F. So that could be 45 to 60 fps difference in muzzle velocity. In the 223 with the 69 SMK that would be a change in point of impact of about 6 inches during the day at 600yds. The more popular powders for long range tend to be about 1/2 to 1/3 the effect (or on that order). There are ways to handle this but it adds to the things that must be managed. If you are shooting competitively then the competition shooting single based powders is going to have a marked advantage.

The temperature swings that get to be an issue are ones like shooting early in the morning and then late in the afternoon. Some shooters go to the trouble of keeping their rounds in a cooler to minimize the change in temperature of rounds. The cloud going over isn't going to be an issue unless you leave the rounds exposed to the sun.

Accuracy? I'm sure that there is ample anecdotal evidence that shows one powder favors better accuracy than the other but I tend to question those results. It would take a pretty extensive test and I am not familiar with one. I have seen very good results from both. But here again, single based powders tend to rule the competitive world but double based extruded, temperature stable powders are bringing to make inroads.

A member here, @Laurie (Holland) is well versed and posts a lot of test info on the following site. He may have some useful information in the Reloading Section. Here is one:

Ramshot Powders

NEW (again) TO BRITISH SHOOTERS: RAMSHOT POWDERS Many years back, a high-profile, ambitious British retailer announced he’d import and supply almost any handloading powder that was available in Europe and the US. As well as taking on Edgar Brothers with Hodgdon and Alliant, Hannam’s with...

www.targetshooter.co.uk

 

[Fuj]

I keep Ramshot Hunter on hand for the medium cartridges.
I like using it for node hunting. Sometimes I get one of my cats
on the edge, but run out of room. Hunter is right in between
4350 and 4831. I'll go to that and drop the pressure. I had two
loads I was shooting at Ridgway. My best load, I was using 4451
Enduron but ran low. 4350 was no where to be found at the time
and I could not get enough powder in case with 4831. I went with
the Ramshot Hunter, and my Crow count at 850 yards went up by
a good margin. I never encountered any temp problems with it.
It's the only ball powder I keep in stock.

 

[Doom]

While not part of the question, some of the newer extruded high energy powders like VV N500 series IMR Enduron, and the Alliant Reloader series are double based. Some of these powders are presented as temperature stable so the differences are becoming more clouded.

The newer temperature stable Ball Powders (Winchester StaBall) may become a real game changer but that remains to seen.

 

[johnfkingmatrix]

wow thanks for the wealth of information, everyone.

Ramshot Hunter is specifically what im referring to, where im experiencing good velocity and low sd/es.

Upon reading those articles, it does seem that a lot of the negative attributes with ball powder have been remedied over the decades; with some temp sensitivity still remaining. In the case of that article 100fps channge from 0f-70f and another 20fps from 70-100, iirc.

That does muddy it a little when choosing between older balls and newer. does anyone know what the cutoff year/metric to look for is, when analyzing if its a new improved ball or old one? presumably the 2520 im considering is something from the paleolithic era?

the 1.5fps/degree doom mentioned seems like the barometer when it comes to deciding if its viable or not, for any given condition.

Follow up Q to that would be: accounting for drop/gain in velocity throughout the day would be doable on vertical holds, but, is that ~30-50fps jump enough to mess with tuning windows and start throwing shots.. essentially ruining a load?

 

[Webster]

I have not been able to find the specific answer :

how much accuracy am i giving up by using a spherical double base powder such as ramshot hunter vs 4350 in my 142g 6.5cm, or varget vs 2520 in 69g .223?

from what ive gathered extruded single base are more consistent due to the potential variability in the nitroglycerin vs nitrocellulose ratio used in double.. or something? :s

This makes sense lot to lot, but, if i just buy an 8Lb jug and shake it vigorously isnt this spherical double base essentially as homogeneous/ accurate as anything else until I switch jugs?

Can someone explain what im gaining by paying 100$ more per 8lb in these scenarios?

are we taking purely variance lot to lot... variance within the same jug etc? and if so what kind of moa variance - would i only notice it in benchest etc

thanks so much!

I wish they had load maps for Creed on this website. They need to create one. I would try to find out what others are shooting in serious competition with a 6.5CM.

 

[Doom]

Follow up Q to that would be: accounting for drop/gain in velocity throughout the day would be doable on vertical holds, but, is that ~30-50fps jump enough to mess with tuning windows and start throwing shots.. essentially ruining a load?

That is something that only you can determine. It definitely can drive you out of a node but it can be managed. It can be more of a problem for guys that travel to different destinations. Note that this can also happen with temperature stable powders also if the node is question is narrow enough.

Talking about managing loads, you might like this:

 

[jelenko]

Who is talking in that video?

 

[Doom]

Who is talking in that video?

Kieth Glascock, YouTube channel is "Winning in the Wind"

 

[johnfkingmatrix]

oh yeah! ive been watching a lot of his stuff. its good to see graphically how nodes follow a bell curve but that there are anomalies, making sure to find a node thats actually on a peak surrounded by other good nodes to widen your margin of error.

so that being said, do you think double base spherical like 2520 in a 223 id be constantly chasing my tail?

 

[Fuj]

So that being said, do you think double base spherical like 2520 in a 223 id be constantly chasing my tail?

Depending on bullet weight. Light bullets, it may be too slow of
a powder. Since were talking ball powder. Try some Ramshot Tac.
Have not seen any feed back on that powder. Test, test. test......

 

[Doom]

I would think 2460 or 2230 would be the better two based on GRT. Not sure which one would be better. 2520 is probably a little slow and will cost you some velocity.

 

[jelenko]

Looking at GRT, it looks like 2230 wouldn't 't allow a good fill ratio. 2460 is a little better, but still around 90%.
TAC would provide better fill ratio - mid to low 90% - and 100% burn.
Shooters World Match [when it's available] would provide mid to hi 90% fill ratio and 100% burn.

 

[Doom]

Looking at GRT, it looks like 2230 wouldn't 't allow a good fill ratio. 2460 is a little better, but still around 90%.
TAC would provide better fill ratio - mid to low 90% - and 100% burn.
Shooters World Match [when it's available] would provide mid to hi 90% fill ratio and 100% burn.

TAC would have slightly better fill. It looks like Hodgdon has switched sources for TAC from PB Clairmont to St. Mark's.