Now that Carl Bernosky has another decisive win at Perry with his AR15 match rifle chambered for 6 HAGAR, I'm wondering how many of you guys who invested in a HAGAR upper after last year's win are still interested in shooting them,if commercial brass ever becomes available)? I've got two uppers, and have made myself almost 1200pcs. of HAGAR brass from R-P 30Rem & Jamison 25Rem brass, but would sure like to have some commercial cases with small primer pockets. My uppers have been 100% reliable in both rapids & slow fire - I think the cartridge deserves more respect from brass makers.
How Many HAGAR Owners Here?
- Thread starter flatlander
- Start date
Dennis,I too have a Hagar and love everything about it especially rapid fire 600,800 and 1000 yd targets.It made my day in 2 Timed Mexican Match Missing Out Money Shoots,but the loss of the brass,300rds) in these shoots is painful.
I understand Carl's interest in Hagar for this cartage,pressure) is borderline max for AR15 frame but has horsepower enough to do it's job better when useing 105 or 107 VLDS .Any more pressure,powder capacity) and my groups grow from .38 to over minute.
Yes, I have paid for my Hagar several times but would like to see some quality brass with strong webbing.
I understand Carl's interest in Hagar for this cartage,pressure) is borderline max for AR15 frame but has horsepower enough to do it's job better when useing 105 or 107 VLDS .Any more pressure,powder capacity) and my groups grow from .38 to over minute.
Yes, I have paid for my Hagar several times but would like to see some quality brass with strong webbing.
Count me among the HAGAR shooters!
Yes, I can make up brass all winter, yes I can shed a tear every time I can't find one - or more - during brass call... yes, I'd LOVE to have more brass 'round the primer, where it would do some good - keeping the pressures we use from stretching the heads until the cases are too beat up to reload again.
Yes, I can make up brass all winter, yes I can shed a tear every time I can't find one - or more - during brass call... yes, I'd LOVE to have more brass 'round the primer, where it would do some good - keeping the pressures we use from stretching the heads until the cases are too beat up to reload again.
spclark...Correct me if I'm wrong but the case design of 30 REM has been around some time for I had a Winchester in 30 rem in the 40's.
That makes the 30 Rem a low pressure Cowboy Load type Cartiage which may even have been black powder at one time?
That makes the 30 Rem a low pressure Cowboy Load type Cartiage which may even have been black powder at one time?
rcw3
Site $$ Sponsor
I would concur that the 30 Rem brass is low pressure brass. It's easy to form, but not good for higher pressure loadings. With the test HAGAR I built, it seemed that about 2800 fps was a maximum loading with the 105 gr 6mm bullets and the 30 Remington brass, and that if the loads were any more than that the brass was good for only 1 or 2 firings and the primer pockets were toast,stretched out beyond further use). At 2800 fps, the re-formed 30 Rem brass was good for about 3 firings before the primer pockets became loose. The Jamison 25 Rem brass was harder and good for a bit more pressure, but the Jamison brass required forming, trimming and neck turning to make it.
Robert Whitley
Robert Whitley
ANY 25 or 30 Rem requires pretty much the same steps to form up 6HAGAR cases, and it's a PITA in the long and short of it, but do-able all the same.
Robert you're correct that the 25 Jameson seems to be made of tougher stuff but what we really want to see is small-primered 6HAGAR cases.
There's a guy out here in Illinois doing something he calls the PDK series of cartridges for varminting. He sells custom head stamped brass for .20 & .22 bullets, made for him by SSA with the SR primer pocket. Say's he working up longer-necked cases for 6mm & 6.5, which gives me some hope that they'll be suitable for the 6HAGAR as well if & when he can get a run out of SSA sometime early next year.
His current stuff is derived from the 6.8SPC case design, itself an evolutionary step down the line from the now effectively obsolete .30 Remington. Problem is, it's too short for the HAGAR, which needs to be trimmed to 1.785" max.
SSA's products have a good reputation so I'm hopeful long-neck 6mmPDK brass might be what we're waiting for if somebody else doesn't come up with a viable solution first.
Robert you're correct that the 25 Jameson seems to be made of tougher stuff but what we really want to see is small-primered 6HAGAR cases.
There's a guy out here in Illinois doing something he calls the PDK series of cartridges for varminting. He sells custom head stamped brass for .20 & .22 bullets, made for him by SSA with the SR primer pocket. Say's he working up longer-necked cases for 6mm & 6.5, which gives me some hope that they'll be suitable for the 6HAGAR as well if & when he can get a run out of SSA sometime early next year.
His current stuff is derived from the 6.8SPC case design, itself an evolutionary step down the line from the now effectively obsolete .30 Remington. Problem is, it's too short for the HAGAR, which needs to be trimmed to 1.785" max.
SSA's products have a good reputation so I'm hopeful long-neck 6mmPDK brass might be what we're waiting for if somebody else doesn't come up with a viable solution first.
Not sure why anyone would want to go through all the effort to make the HAGAR case that is designed around a low pressure case with a large rifle primer,other than the fact that Carl won the Nationals with it) when there are several good 6mm rounds already available for the AR frame that will duplicate the velocity and accuracy of the HAGAR without all the case forming mess. I guess it is the "new IPOD" of the AR world for now.
{{{AR frame that will duplicate the velocity and accuracy of the HAGAR}}}}
Can tell MATSUBOB is not a Hagar owner,but has an opinion and can type?
Can tell MATSUBOB is not a Hagar owner,but has an opinion and can type?
rcw3
Site $$ Sponsor
Yeah but Bob knows a few things about 6mm AR-15's and his opinions are definitely worth something. He has been shooting them in competition for a few years. He was also one of the accuracy testers for Berger Bullets for their 6mm 108 gr. BT bullets and used a 6mmAR for that. He was also one of the field testers for the 6mmAR Turbo cartridge for us when we first released it. Berger Bullets has also featured him in their advertising in recognition of his work and shooting.
Robert Whitley
www.6mmAR.com
Robert Whitley
www.6mmAR.com
Robert I have for a long time wanted one of your rifles but each time I here that your's is better and why?
Is it because the 6.5 shortneck case to small?
Is it because your Hagar experiment didn't work?
Is it because you have spent lot's time an money to build something better,but John and Carl keep winning?
OR IS IT THAT THE HAGAR CASE with a few extra grains of powder is ideal for it's AR15 magazine feed frame?
Is it because the 6.5 shortneck case to small?
Is it because your Hagar experiment didn't work?
Is it because you have spent lot's time an money to build something better,but John and Carl keep winning?
OR IS IT THAT THE HAGAR CASE with a few extra grains of powder is ideal for it's AR15 magazine feed frame?
relictrader said:
What is it about some of you Texas boys that "bigger is always better",at least until Alaska became a state). I have no doubt that the HAGAR is an excellent case but the bottom line is that Carl Bernosky with his super abilities with a rifle could easly do what he does with any of the 6mm's out there. It's not how fast you can push those 105-108g pills, it's how hard you can hold the shooting stick.,FYI see quote below from this web site)
"At New Holland, Carl shot alongside Robert Whitley. Carl said he was impressed by Robert's new 6mmAR Turbo round. The 6mmAR Turbo is based on 6.5 Grendel cases necked to 6mm with the shoulder blown forward slightly. Carl told us: "If Robert's 6mmAR Turbo can really shoot the 105s at 2880+ fps, then it should be competitive with the 6mm Hagar, and the brass is available right now. Whitley's cartridge looks like it has great potential."
rcw3
Site $$ Sponsor
relictrader said:
Relictrader
Let's just set the record straight here - - -
The HAGAR has the exact same case capacity as the 6mm Turbo 40 cartridge and only .5 gr water capacity more than a 6mmAR Turbo.
I think if you go back and look at the 3x600 match where Carl and I were squaded together and shot last year at New Holland, PA, me with a 6mmAR Turbo and he with his 6mm HAGAR, you will see that your assumption that Carl with the HAGAR bested me with the 6mmAR Turbo is just not correct. Does that mean the HAGAR is not as good as the 6mmAR line of cartridges because I beat Carl in every match we shot our AR's head to head? - No.
Carl's a great shooter, I know him personally and have great respect for him. I also know and do some business with John and I have great respect for him too.
Speaking of magazine feeding out of an AR-15, when's the last time you mag fed 105-108 gr bullets out of a HAGAR at 300 yards? Probably never because the case is too long to do that, yet we do it all the time with the 6mmAR line of cartridges. On a windy day that's a clear advantage at 300 yards, as is Lapua small primer brass we have that does not require a whole lot of work and forming.
As a side note, on this issue of the HAGAR winning all the time, the last time I counted there are at least 12 national high power shooting records that were set with the 6mmAR, but at this point I know of only one set with the HAGAR,and that was never officially recorded). Does that mean the 6mmAR is better - no. Like Bob said, the HAGAR is a viable cartridge, but it's just one of the choices.
Let the facts speak!
Robert Whitley
rcw3 said:
For information only. I do not compete in matches. However, I do own one of Robert's 6mmAR uppers.,not the turbo) I have shot it on several occasions with several different loads and bullet weights. I have been able to acheive 100 yd. 5 shot groups with anything from 75 gr. V-max to 108 gr. Berger BT and most 80 and 90 weights between that will measure in the .250 area and have taken out pop bottles filled with water at 500 and 600 yds. consistantly. Some groups slightly smaller and some slightly larger. Point is, Robert's uppers will shoot accurately. Personally, I would have to see proof of any other 6mm AR-15 platform out performing his uppers in the accuracy arena. I understand there are several other 6mm AR-15 wildcats and they may shoot as good as Robert's uppers but I would have to be shown that either one is better in the accuracy dept. Bill
WOW!This liven's things and with some good info for readers.
The information you are reading would take lot's of research to compile.
Robert is right on with 6AR and it is a winner,setting many benchrest records.
Mag fed 105-108 gr bullets out of a HAGAR at 600 yards needs to to slow fire single fed but 90gr mag/feed is a no brainer at 300 yds...as a matter of fact in my 24 in White Oak Hagar with a Marsh 60 will cosistantly place 3 and sometime 4 in same hole and kick one or 2 out inch or less.
YES,Carl's a great shooter,and should not be mentioned here except for his choise of cases to propel his loads 600 yards.
The information you are reading would take lot's of research to compile.
Robert is right on with 6AR and it is a winner,setting many benchrest records.
Mag fed 105-108 gr bullets out of a HAGAR at 600 yards needs to to slow fire single fed but 90gr mag/feed is a no brainer at 300 yds...as a matter of fact in my 24 in White Oak Hagar with a Marsh 60 will cosistantly place 3 and sometime 4 in same hole and kick one or 2 out inch or less.
YES,Carl's a great shooter,and should not be mentioned here except for his choise of cases to propel his loads 600 yards.
sewwhat89 said:This sounds like Chevy v Ford. On can be found on road dead or first on race day, but the other is like a rock.
You are correct, but I been there and done that too and if the money is spent and the cars are set up right either one will win a race. Will have to give it up to the 509 cu in BB chevy with Brodix heads and F-1R Procharger Supercharger though. Only ride I ever had that put me down the 1/8 mile track in a full body 71 Camaro at 5.89 sec.,That's 785 real wheel Horse Power) Feels awesome but cost a bunch of money.
Posting this HAGAR Subject in 1/4 Miler Forum might make some 1/4 milers scratch heads????????
I think that the flyers that I have are associated with the action flexing.
In EARLY PRECISION SHOOTING PUBICATIONS BENCH REST SHOOTERS biggest problem was solved with custom actions and Barrels.
Robert again is right-on and should be commended.The answer might be to chamber the AR15 round in AR10,that's how we got to
B.R HEAVY GUN...........NO,,NOT ME,I DON"T THINK SO!
I think that the flyers that I have are associated with the action flexing.
In EARLY PRECISION SHOOTING PUBICATIONS BENCH REST SHOOTERS biggest problem was solved with custom actions and Barrels.
Robert again is right-on and should be commended.The answer might be to chamber the AR15 round in AR10,that's how we got to
B.R HEAVY GUN...........NO,,NOT ME,I DON"T THINK SO!
This has really been a "lively" discussion. I think we can all agree to disagree on who thinks what is better, but I think we can all agree that we are all fans of the 6mm. Relictrader, hope to see you on the range some day, I would be happy to be your pit puller anytime. Good shooting and as my old Army team coach SSG Pratt used to tell me; "keep em in the middle and you will have a better score".
Lively, yes but it took something of an off-topic tangent. As there's more than one 6mm choice that works in an AR frame I guess that was inevitable.
,In another forum post yesterday Carl B. confirmed several details about his rifle, amongst which he mentions he beds his upper to eliminate possible flex.)
Now if we can get a decent count of how many shooters will continue to shoot the 6HAGAR we'll be back on track....
,In another forum post yesterday Carl B. confirmed several details about his rifle, amongst which he mentions he beds his upper to eliminate possible flex.)
Now if we can get a decent count of how many shooters will continue to shoot the 6HAGAR we'll be back on track....
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.