How Loose Can a Primer Pocket Be?

[Barlow]

I asked that question a few years ago, when I called the Sierra hotline. The expert told me, " if you tap the base edge of the case on a hard surface (on an angle) hard and the primer stays in place it's good to go". Just saying. Barlow

 

[bigedp51]

Daveinjax

I'm not doubting your word BUT all it seems it would do is tighten the mouth of the primer pocket. And on top of this it would seem with a hard downward blow the primer pocket would expand outward and become LARGER in diameter.

Again this is just my wild a$$ guess but again how would this work with primer pockets with military ammo that had the crimps removed by reaming.

So the big question is what make/type cases does this work on? Lake City cases have the hardest brass in the base than any other make of brass other than commercial contract military ammo.

Below is my scrap brass bucket and 95% of these .223/5.56 cases are once fired factory loaded Federal ammunition with over sized primer pockets. This means "SOFT" brass and not worth "whacking" to tighten the mouth of the primer pocket.

Barlow

I picked up the method below at the reloading forum at AR15.com from the moderator and it works very well. Using the Lee depriming tool if the primer moves with just finger pressure it goes in the scrap brass bucket. You seat the primer by feel and reject the primer by feel.

 

[Shrek]

The end of the bolt is slightly concave and it does only tighten the top edge as whitenessed by the shiny edge when I ran the uniformer reamer in them. I can't say how it would work on LC brass but on soft Norma it worked great. I anneal all the necks every firing and a little work hardening of the base and body won't hurt the butter soft Norma at all. For the investment of five dollars or so I'm not hurt if it hadn't worked. But it did for me so I just saved hundreds of dollars and many hours of prep.

 

[CatShooter]

[...] "but on soft Norma it worked great. I anneal all the necks every firing and a little work hardening of the base and body won't hurt the butter soft Norma at all.

Norma is not "Butter soft".

it brackets Winchester (W-W), which is the hardest US commercial brass.

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Most guys guess... but here are some real numbers I did in the spring of 2014.

Pardon the mess - it always looks like this in the spring and this spring is worse, cuz Martha Stewart's maid couldn't make it this month, and the woodchucks are calling...

My $2,500 Ames Hardness Gauge -- it is FAA certified and approved for testing aircraft engine parts (you cannot get a better tool than that!)

I measured four cases which were picked at random.

LC 2008 5.56mm
Lapua 223 Match
Winchester 223
Remington (R-P) 223


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Lake City 2008

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Lapua 223 Match

[

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Winchester 223

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Remington (R-P)

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The actual Hardness measurements were (.062"x100kg, Rockwell "B")

LC 2008 = 96

Lapua 223 Match = 86

Norma 30-06 - 76 (added n Dec -'14)

Winchester 223 = 69

Norma .220 Swift = 64 (added in Dec '14)

Remington "R-P" = 49

For all you guys that have been saying that Winchester cases were tougher than Remington... you are vindicated, they are a lot tougher!... 40% tougher

For all you guys that think Lake City is surplus junk, nothing could be further from the truth. It is some of the most bestest brass made (it is paid for by the tax payer), so enjoy it!!!

LC and Lapua are the "The pick of the litter"!


(Ain't modern telephones wunnerful fer pictures ??)

 

[Charles]

just went thru primed 200 cases had three fall out when i put lite pressure on them,will shoot this batch and discard.

 

[Shrek]

Catshooter, based on a sample of four we have the definitive hardness test for all lots ?

 

[bigedp51]

amlevin with all due respect the cases I'm checking with the pin gauges are once fired crimped military cases. And I'm being extra *careful because the primer pockets are reamed to remove the crimp. I have no problems with new cases because I do not load hot and seldom have oversize primer pockets.

*Careful, the reloaded ammo will also be shot in my sons AR15 rifle and Dad isn't going to be blamed for a pitted bolt face.

1. A light touch with the VLD tool
2. Then the RCBS reamer made for their case prep station.
3. And the Lyman reamer as a GO NO-GO gauge.

Note: The RCBS reamer makes the cases look like a new Remington .223 case and this reamer does not remove any brass from these new Remington cases.

 

[CatShooter]

Catshooter, based on a sample of four we have the definitive hardness test for all lots ?

I invite you to post your "Butter Soft" tests...

Oh yeah... you didn't do any, did you?

But you know a guy who's friend works at Dick's Sporting Goods, and HE SAID, the Norma was "Butter Soft", right??
Exactly what is the Brinnel hardness/softness of butter (right out of the fridge, and out on the counter for an hour)??

I love the science presented here by guessers and myth spreaders.

 

[Shrek]

CatShooter , no not really. I haven't talked to anyone at any big box store about loading or shooting since I was younger. I'm only talking about the Norma brass that I own and have shot. I was just relating that the technique I discribed worked for me and I would bet it will work on just about any brass and save you a bunch of money and time. I'm so happy you had the opportunity to test four cases on the fancy machine and from that prodigious sample you were able to scientifically extrapolate that to all other lots of brass made by those makers. I'm in awe of you sir !

 

[CatShooter]

CatShooter , no not really. I haven't talked to anyone at any big box store about loading or shooting since I was younger. I'm only talking about the Norma brass that I own and have shot. I was just relating that the technique I discribed worked for me and I would bet it will work on just about any brass and save you a bunch of money and time. I'm so happy you had the opportunity to test four cases on the fancy machine and from that prodigious sample you were able to scientifically extrapolate that to all other lots of brass made by those makers. I'm in awe of you sir !

You still have not explained your method of measuring cases to determine that they are "Butter soft".

I guess all lots of Norma are "Butter soft", by your method.

 

[bigedp51]

I invite you to post your "Butter Soft" tests...

CatShooter

I did some butter structural testing last July and Stonehenge melted and collapsed killing over 200 insects.

Now lighten up and smile and realize compared to your own testing Norma is butter soft and the Remington cases are whipped margarine.

Your getting as picky as that guy that doesn't like me saying the "Enfield" word.

 

[arnie]

Believe it or not ,I have super glued primers into loose pockets of 223 brass and they held just fine for one firing in an AR. After sizing ,trimming and annealing I wasn't going to just throw them away .

 

[bigedp51]

Believe it or not ,I have super glued primers into loose pockets of 223 brass and they held just fine for one firing in an AR. After sizing ,trimming and annealing I wasn't going to just throw them away .

And I thought I was a cheap tight A$$, your so tight when you break wind it sounds like a silent dog whistle.

 

[CatShooter]

Catshooter, based on a sample of four we have the definitive hardness test for all lots ?

I invite you to post your "Butter Soft" tests...

Oh yeah... you didn't do any, did you?

But you know a guy who's friend works at Dick's Sporting Goods, and HE SAID, the Norma was "Butter Soft", right??
Exactly what is the Brinnel hardness/softness of butter (right out of the fridge, and out on the counter for an hour)??

I love the science presented here by guessers and myth spreaders.

Speaking of science...your pictures seem to indicate the brass you tested the "hardness" of had been fired. Firing can work-harden brass, sometimes significantly. This could dramatically affect the hardness test results, particularly if the loads fired in each type of brass were not the same. Did you do any hardness testing of virgin brass? I'd be really curious to know whether the hardness values of virgin brass for each of the different brands were relatively consistent with what you determined for fired brass.

Some were new and some were once fires - none were fired more than once.

"Firing can work-harden brass, sometimes significantly."

Do you have any actual evidence of this, or is it a theory of yours??

 

[CatShooter]

It's not a theory, it's a fact. If it wasn't, we wouldn't ever need to anneal brass, so please, let's not even go there. If you think it doesn't happen or can't affect your brass "hardness" testing, that's fine, and there's no need for any further discussion. I just wanted to know if you had tested whether virgin brass relative hardness between the different brands was similar to what you had seen with the fired cases.

I'll go there right now.

We anneal the neck because it get "work hardened" by actually expanding, sizing/contracting, expanding, sizing/contracting,expanding, sizing/contracting, over and over.
In a factory chamber, than can amound to ~25 thou per cycle

If you have a tight neck chamber, the necks can go through dozens of cycles without annealing, and without spliting, because the expanding, sizing/contracting cycle might be 3 or 4 thou in total.

But we are talking about the case head, not the neck (in case you got lost)... the case head does NOT go through that cycle, so there is no cyclic "work hardening" to cause the head to get harder each firing.

 

[bigedp51]

OK CatShooter its time to ease up on the guy and try and be friends.

P.S. I like you better when you don't put your tampon in sideways, your sounding like that bigedp51 guy when his underwear is too tight. So save your really mean side for when fguffey shows up and wear your hob nail boots.

So again CatShooter you don't need to be a male Ewok with high testosterone levels every single posting.

Signed
Attila the Hun

 

[Savage99]

Beware that some primers are undersize!

The unplated, brass color, WLR and WLRM primers I have measure undersize and fit loose in good primer pockets!

Apparently they forgot to increase the diameter of the brass primer cup when leaving the plating off!

 

[bigedp51]

Beware that some primers are undersize!

The unplated, brass color, WLR and WLRM primers I have measure undersize and fit loose in good primer pockets!

Apparently they forgot to increase the diameter of the brass primer cup when leaving the plating off!

With pin gauges you find out your primer pocket diameter, and with a micrometer you find out your primers diameter.
Then you find a primer that fits correctly or throw the brass in the scrap bucket. You can talk about loose primers all day long, BUT its up to the reloader to find the problem and solve it and arguing in a forum will not fix a loose primer pocket.

 

[william5409]

Got it too!thx all

 

[CatShooter]

It's not a theory, it's a fact. If it wasn't, we wouldn't ever need to anneal brass, so please, let's not even go there. If you think it doesn't happen or can't affect your brass "hardness" testing, that's fine, and there's no need for any further discussion. I just wanted to know if you had tested whether virgin brass relative hardness between the different brands was similar to what you had seen with the fired cases.

I'll go there right now.

We anneal the neck because it get "work hardened" by actually expanding, sizing/contracting, expanding, sizing/contracting,expanding, sizing/contracting, over and over.
In a factory chamber, than can amound to ~25 thou per cycle

If you have a tight neck chamber, the necks can go through dozens of cycles without annealing, and without spliting, because the expanding, sizing/contracting cycle might be 3 or 4 thou in total.

But we are talking about the case head, not the neck (in case you got lost)... the case head does NOT go through that cycle, so there is no cyclic "work hardening" to cause the head to get harder each firing.

If you think the case head doesn't get worked during firing, you're totally misinformed. How do you think primer pockets ever expand if the case head region doesn't undergo a similar cycle? Why does .308 Palma brass stand up much better to high pressure loads? The list goes on. Your "scientific" test with your fancy little hardness tool is BS. An "N' of one is meaningless, as is comparing brass that has likely gone through different numbers of firings. You want to demonstrate your "expertise"? Do the test in a meaningful way with virgin brass and 10-20 cases each so you can demonstrate some statistical significance.

It might be BS to you, but so far, I have seen nothing from anyone else.

Please post YOUR efforts. We would all love to be enlightened by your effort... so far, all I see is mouth.