How high? Prone f, ftr

[Milo 2.0]

Show us a close up pic of your scope rings, by your pic, to me they look extremely high.

 

[XTR]

I use a 'wedge' shaped pad under my chest to help elevate my upper body. It's about 2-3" and helps with that arcing of my back. For rear bag I just use an old fashioned squeeze bag to adjust rifle elevation. I read the rules and there was nothing I saw against it - as long as you're not adding pads/support for the rifle. I talking F T/R.

You should to re-read 3.1 3.10 and 5.2. As I wrote in my post above, the NRA officials have ruled on this at the FCNC in the past. Shooting F class in the US you are still required to abide by all of the NRA HP rules and those applicable to your class. In this case you are shooting prone, so prone rules apply to you.

 

[Medic505]

Still, I get fatigued about half way through an F Class string and have to sit up and stretch.

I know this feeling all too well. I also try to stay in shape, yeah round is a shape, the older I get it seems my neck fatigues easier than it once did. To alleviate this issue I started doing what I call supermans. I'm sure there is a official yoga name for them but it works like this. Lie prone on the floor, arms extended out front. Lift your arms, legs, chest and head into a position that looks like superman flying. Hold for 6 to 10 seconds. I do this 3 or 4 times a week, 3 sets of 5 to 10 reps. It has helped the strength in my upper torso and neck immensely. YMMV Oh, I forget to add, these hurt like hell until your body adjusts to the new stress. Works wonders for being able to stay in position waiting on the wind to switch back.

 

[bench]

Ok so I have read this post twice and not sure if we can or cannot use a support under your chest.
Is it yes we can or is it no you cannot.
Thanks

 

[memilanuk]

You should to re-read 3.1 and 5.2. As I wrote in my post above, the NRA officials have ruled on this at the FCNC in the past. Shooting F class in the US you are still required to abide by all of the NRA HP rules and those applicable to your class. In this case you are shooting prone, so prone rules apply to you.

3.1 is the definition of a Service Rifle. Not sure what that has to do with the price of tea in China...?

5.2 Artificial Support and 5.6 Prone may have some relevance, but I'd read that as something pertaining more to traditional unsupported (Standing) and supported (Sitting/Kneeling/Prone) positions with a sling, where the so-called 'artificial support' can make a material difference in the stability of the position. For what we're talking about here, it's primarily a 'creature comfort' thing. Conflating the two shows, in my mind, a gross misunderstanding on the part of the referee of the sport he was adjudicating - not that that's a huge surprise to anyone who's had any interaction with those folks. I don't know that I've ever spoke to one who'd actually *shot* F-class.

Regardless of what the referee @ FCNC may have ruled I've seen various pads used at times at local matches. Case in point: we had a local shooter who for years had a spiral break on a rib that just wouldn't heal right. Absolutely no way to shoot prone without some extra padding underneath, and no reasonable match director is going to turn them away. Other people use very heavily padded mats, with holes cut-out for the rear bag - because again, the contact between the shooter and the mat and the ground isn't the key element here, it's the contact between the gun and the rear bag and the ground.

 

[Cochran]

This same discussion comes up every year or two. For as long as I’ve been shooting f-class matches,which is approaching 20 years, I’ve always used a rolled up sweatshirt under my chest for extra padding. It doesn’t really lift me up much as it’s pretty flattened out by the end of a string but it’s much more comfortable that just a mat.

I was approached by an NRA referee once who questioned it. He seemed happy enough with my answer but I found out later he brought it up with Larry. I’m paraphrasing but Larry’s response to him was “do you think it’s an advantage over the other shooters”. Never have had anyone question it again.

I have however brought it up preemptively several other times at both the nationals and world championships. I searched out the official referees and got approval beforehand. I’m sure everyone of them probably watched me shoot a string just to make sure I wasn’t trying to pull some trick.

I just don’t see it as any different than the tons of guys who lay out towels of all sizes under their elbows. Why make people be uncomfortable when they shoot.

 

[memilanuk]

I just don’t see it as any different than the tons of guys who lay out towels of all sizes under their elbows.

Or the guys who wear elbow pads...

 

[XTR]

Monte and Jeff, I respect both of you, you've been doing this thing about as long as it's been around, but where do you draw the line? or do you? Can someone show up with a wedge pillow? Granted we're not building positions like sling guys shooting off of their elbows, but we are still shooting a prone HP event.

Not that it matters at all but I disagree with you on this one.

Monte, the 3.1 was supposed to be 3.10, in the discussions of positions. I quoted the whole paragraph the first time i referenced it.

3.10 Ground Cloths or Ground Pads— A competitor may use one or more ground cloths or ground pads so long as they are not constructed or used in a manner to provide artificial rest or support.
​

Elbow pads are covered in 3.12

3.12 Padding—Shoulder pads, sling pads and elbow pads may be worn provided they are constructed so as not to provide artificial support.​

Edit: I'll agree that other than Earl, I don't think I've ever seen another NRA referee that shoots F class

 

[Cochran]

There probably does need to be a line somewhere. Lord only knows what kinda crazy stuff people can come up with. Like the guy that erected a shed over his gun for shooting in the rain. I’ve got a picture of that. It’s hilarious.

In my case I look at it as ‘one or more ground pads’ as it says in the rule you quoted. Maybe laying on a giant pillow like I saw at Panola once is a bit much for some people but that concrete firing line is not forgiving. I don’t blame him. I’ve use two mats there before.

 

[kzin]

I've been involved with a lot of sports over the last 50 years.

All of them have arguments over whether the rules are what they should be.

Nothing else is close for how many arguments there can be about what the rules ARE.

 

[dcali]

Artificial support is sort of meaningless in f class, isn’t it? The rifle is on a rest. I honestly cannot even imagine any kind of pad or pillow that would improve upon that.

 

[Scott Harris]

3.1 is the definition of a Service Rifle. Not sure what that has to do with the price of tea in China...?

5.2 Artificial Support and 5.6 Prone may have some relevance, but I'd read that as something pertaining more to traditional unsupported (Standing) and supported (Sitting/Kneeling/Prone) positions with a sling, where the so-called 'artificial support' can make a material difference in the stability of the position. For what we're talking about here, it's primarily a 'creature comfort' thing. Conflating the two shows, in my mind, a gross misunderstanding on the part of the referee of the sport he was adjudicating - not that that's a huge surprise to anyone who's had any interaction with those folks. I don't know that I've ever spoke to one who'd actually *shot* F-class.

Regardless of what the referee @ FCNC may have ruled I've seen various pads used at times at local matches. Case in point: we had a local shooter who for years had a spiral break on a rib that just wouldn't heal right. Absolutely no way to shoot prone without some extra padding underneath, and no reasonable match director is going to turn them away. Other people use very heavily padded mats, with holes cut-out for the rear bag - because again, the contact between the shooter and the mat and the ground isn't the key element here, it's the contact between the gun and the rear bag and the ground.

thats the way i interpreted the rules, but Wade pointed out the prior referee ruling. So, how does one get a definitive ruling from the nra? protest or rules committee?

 

[memilanuk]

...and Jeff (@Cochran ) pointed out multiple prior rulings the *other* way.

Pretty much those only count towards that one specific time and place. That day, that range. People frequently reference them going forward, but sooner or later you'll get a different ref on a different day that reads things differently, and voila, now you have *two* versions of 'past precedent'.

Unless you can get the tournament competitions dept. to make an 'official' ruling in black & white, or get the shadowy 'High Power Committee' to make a ruling of some sort... it's going to continue to be interpreted one way or the other, on a case-by-case basis.

Which might not be the end of the world - while there are plenty of innocuous examples such as the ones Jeff and I have mentioned... at some point, there may be somebody that will blatantly take it too far and need to be corrected.

 

[Ned Ludd]

...and Jeff (@Cochran )

... at some point, there may be somebody that will blatantly take it too far and need to be corrected.

My new shooting mat:

 

[Boisblancboy]

My new shooting mat:


View attachment 1095772

I literally just told my old man this is what he should use! Hahahaha

 

[T.Rhodes]

The confusion, IMO, is that F Class has its own section of rules, section 22 of NRA High Power Match. There is no mention of the use of additional supports for the shooter, it only addresses supports for the rifle. BUT, at the beginning of the F Class rules there is a note; " In all cases where specific rules are not given here, the appropriate rules for High Power Rifle competition shall be used." The F Class is painted with the broad brush of all High Power rules just to cover all bases.

I did not know this...I shall say five "All Hail NRA", go forth and mend my ways.

 

[glockaholic]

Elbow pads are covered in 3.12

3.12 Padding—Shoulder pads, sling pads and elbow pads may be worn provided they are constructed so as not to provide artificial support.​

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse but looking for understanding. It says in 3.12 that elbow pads may be worn. So can someone describe or show a pic of elbow pads providing artificial support? or a pic or description where there are acceptable? thanks in advance