How good is good enough?

[rchouser]

I am posting this here because you "serious" shooters can give me the best advice (if you are willing to put up with an old man's questions).

I decided last month that I was tired of shooting at 100 yard ranges and also tired of looking at a 450 yard shot and trying to figure out a "best guess" solution during hunting season. I am 65 so I can still remember shooting a 600 yard KD range with iron sites and an M-14.

I found a monthly fun shoot about 40 minutes away, so, three weeks ago off I went. The targets range from 100 yards to 1150 yards. Past 100 they are all metal, but, different sizes and different shapes (sizes were distance appropriate).

The order of engagement had me running my moa adjustments both up and down. 350 followed by 935 followed by 1150 followed by 750 then 1000 (you get the idea).

The rules provided opportunity for each shooter to shoot in two orders. Each order was 2 shots on each of 10 targets at known distances (you could dope your shoot ahead of time and adjust your dope between orders. Each shooter was provided a spotter who called each shot and scored your round.

I was handed my backside. I had showed up with a very good 308 but only brought 147 gr mil spec 308 ammo. This stuff was fine to about 600 yards, but at the 900 and above sometimes the spotter could not even find it. Lesson learned: Bring appropriate ammo.

I have now found a range with a 300,500, and 1000 yard line. I am using the same 308 and the most accurate handload is a 175 gr SMK's over 44.2 gr of Varget and BR-2 primer. This load is only getting me 2680 avg velocity, but, it is VERY good to the 1000 yard line. I am shooting at clay pigeons laid out on the berm and am hitting or bouncing these at 1000 about 50 percent of the time and within a couple of inches of the bird 90 percent of the time. The rest are when the wind would lull and then I was off by a mil dot or more windage. I had to stop shooting at 500 because I was breaking a bird a shot and wanted to leave some for the 1000.

I have done a lot of reading about what might be a better load or a more efficient bullet, but, with a clay pigion being 4" and most shots being within 2 inches of the clay at 1000, I don't know if I should even pursue another load. The SD and ED of this load are not good, but, I am breaking the 4" clay pigeons about 50 percent of the time and within what I measure as an MOA will all shots NOT windage errored.

My goal is to NOT be embarrassed at the next fun match. I am tempted to call this load good enough (SD's issues and all).

Opinions? Advice on how to adjust an SD/ED without losing accuracy would also be appreciated.

Thanks in advance rch

 

[ShootDots]

I would get with Johnny Ingram on this forum. "PM" him.. His handle is JohnyI (or JohnnyI).. He is one of the finest F-T/R shooters around>>period. He can very much help you with the .308.. He is currently the Texas State Long-Range (read that 1000 yards) Champion. He will be glad to help out any way he can..

 

[GeorgeSpringer]

Your load sounds like it is getting close to right. I would suggest you try the same load with Fed GM210 primers. I was shooting 43 grains of either varget or rl15 with 210's and 175 SMK's when I had a 308 barrel screwed on an action. The primer change might get you the to lower ES/SD's.

GSpringer

 

[Dusty Stevens]

How big are the targets compared to your clays?

 

[rchouser]

Shootdots: thanks for the contact info on "Johnny", but, I don't think my shooting issue is enough to bother a National Level champion. I would be embarrassed. It is nice to know we have that level guy on line here.

GSpring: I have the BR-2's but no GM210M's. I have some Wolf LR I could try and also a couple of other LR primers, but the Federal Match in Large Rifle is hard for me to find right now.

Dusty Stevens: the 1150 target is a full 36" steel round. The 1000 is a 16" round (1.6 MOA). I guess my load should be sufficient. I just worry about the fact I will be transonic for the 1150 and my SD/ED is way out there. I am going to relook the SD (actually sort some cases) and reload them as a set.

I went back and looked at the string that I fired for this SD/ED. There was clearly one shot that blew the spread. Maybe I just need to use a bit more technique. I also based this on a five shot string. I will try a 15 shot string and see if it is all me.

Thanks for the replies, suggestions, and advice.

rch

 

[SWRichmond]

Depending on your barrel twist, and how hard you are willing to push, the 185 Berger Juggernaut is an outstanding LR bullet and puts the hurt on the 175 SMK / TMK big time.

There's not much in your post about the rifles, limitations, weight, brakes, etc.

The 147's go transonic before 1K and they tumble. In addition to accuracy, at LR your friends are bullet weight, bullet velocity, (low) SD, and BC. So the question to you is: how far do you want to take this?

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Put some groups on paper at 1k. Ignore sd/es.

 

[barefooter56]

Sir,
What is your SD for this load? It sounds like you already have a good one by what you've described. Hitting a clay bird at 1000 yards indicates a sub MOA load and a good shooter! As long as you have enough velocity at at the muzzle so the round is still supersonic at 1000 and the rifle likes it that's good enough. Velocity is nice but accuracy is King. If you want to try another bullet in that weight range I would suggest our .30 caliber 175 Long Range Boat tail target ( #30420). Or as suggested before our .30 cal 185 grain Juggernaut ( 30418). A 1-10 twist rate barrel would be excellent for both.

 

[North Fork]

If it was me i would try the 185 juggernaut

 

[rchouser]

barefooter56: Sorry, I thought I posted my load data.
SD: 18.9 ED: 47 AVG VEL: 2685. This is a 1:10 twist 22" Match Chamber barrel (not tight neck). As I said, I relooked the chronographed load reading and found I had a single real "flyer" in the set. I need to reshoot this load for speed and es/sd. I developed and shot the load at 300, 500, and 1000 after finding it the most accurate on a 100 yard bench shoot. The load performs, it is just a BAD SD/ED.

Zfastmalibu: I agree that performance rules. While I haven't put up a piece of paper, I went 8 for 8 clay birds at 500 in a 5 MPH crosswind, so I am comfortable calling it a sub MOA load. It consistently will shoot .4's (center to center) at 100. It is just slow and my 5 shot chronograph shows a bad SD\ED. I believe and will state that this gun is holding at well under and MOA at 1000 and I might even call it .5 MOA. For that I WOULD need paper.

SWRichamond: I just ordered a new rear bag just for this fun shoot shooting so I guess I am going further. Do you think I can run the 185 Juggernaut in a 22" barrel? It is not a lot of barrel and needs to run a fairly quick powder.

If this group thinks a 185 will run, I will see if they are available and order them in.

The rifle is a stock Colt M2012SA in 308. I picked this rifle up when a price point presented itself (a dealer couldn't get rid of it after the special order fell through). I really had never shot it much until this "long range fun shoot" appeared. It is a muzzle braked chassis gun built on a cooper action. Because of the brake, I can shoot any weight bullet without a recoil penalty.

I am going to id a set of weight matched brass and reshoot this load for the chronograph. I will see if I can't weed out some of the issue caused by a single round outlying the group velocity.

thanks and please let me know if you think I could run a 185 in a 22 inch barrel.

thanks rch

 

[SWRichmond]

If you introduce too many variables all at once you might set yourself up for a bad time so watch out how much advice from us experts you try to use...

You can't shoot the brake in F Class.

The 185 Juggernaut is a mainstay of .308 long range, or at least it was until the 200 hybrids. You're giving up about 100fps or so with a 22" barrel (instead of a 26") but with 10" twist I would think you could definitely use them. "Match chamber" might mean anything. Borrow a 185 Jugg from someone and see how far out you can seat it. Some consider the shoulder/neck junction thing to be a hard and fast rule, I do not, but if it's seated into the case very far you give up too much case capacity.

In any event there are many better bullets than the SMK for long range, some of them mentioned here. Some are tweaky (VLD style) and some are not. Good luck!

 

[rchouser]

gstaylorg: I did the first fun match because I just wanted to see if I could "do the deal" at long range targets. I was spinning my turrets like a top and it was just plain fun. Wrong ammo, lost shots, but really a good day.

I decided I needed more practice and found a fixed range (berms) range that I can access weekly and the execution is always short to long with folks moving back to the next berm on agreement. I spent 6 hours at 300, 500, and 1000. I have been back every weekend since (wife is a kind woman).

I am also building my ballistics chart for the next fun shoot. I expect to do much better. You are right... I am hooked at least to the informal.

SWRichmond: I spun off the brake for cleaning and do have a cap. I could shoot it without the brake, but, I am not sure I want to. I would love to consistently break 8 or 9 out of ten clays at 1000 just for the bragging rights (old guy thing I would guess).

SWRichmond, thanks for the reminder on using care in how many elements get changed at once. I am going to go after brass sorting first and build some sets of somewhat matched brass. I will then try the seating depth. I hate to admit this, but, I just took a store bought 175 Federal GM round and set up my seating depth equal to the store bought. I haven't even changed it because it shot well. I know I have plenty of throat left.

Again, thanks to all who are donating your time and expertise to my questions.

rch

 

[barefooter56]

rchouser,
See if you can run that load over a Magneto Speed unit if you can to recheck SD. Nothing is written in stone that you have to have single digit SD for it to be an accurate load. The chronograph can say one thing but the target is always the trump card. Keep us in the loop please!

 

[SWRichmond]

A clay bird is smaller than the X ring on a F-Class 1000 yard target. If you can hit it 9 out of ten times, do it twice for one match, two matches a day, for four consecutive days, in any conditions, with no brake, within a time limit, (and not just hit the dirt near it and destroy it), you can win a national FTR championship.

If you can do that with 175 SMKs you'd be some kind of shooting god.

 

[rchouser]

SWRichmond: I truly respect the match shooters that can compete at that pace. Their dedication, commitment and consistency mark their excellence. I will not join their ranks but that's ok too.

I like sunny days and light winds. I am maybe going to become a technically competent shooter with practice. Please don't let my exuberance offend anyone. I know that an MOA is 10" at a thousand and clay birds are .4 MOA's.

I do appreciate your expertise and the information you have shared. I look forward to leaning from you and the others on this sight.

gstaylorg: The rifle liked the FGMM at 100 for grouping so I thought "why not". I am going to order the Juggernauts. I will take any advantage that I can find. I am still not sure of what velocity I can achieve with a 22" barrel.

Thanks to all
rch