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How far should I neck size?

Hello Gentlemen,

I need some advise on far to necksize my 6mmBr Lupua brass. 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 or all neck? My rifle is a Remington 700 with a 26" Krieger barrel, 1-7 twist, Shooting 105 Berger bullets with 28.3 grains of varget, CCI BR4 primers. My dies are Forster and barrel is not a tight neck. Any feedback is welcomed.
Thxs
Manny Sanchez
 
I like to leave about .050" of neck unsized to better center the case in the chamber. Wilson dies size about 70% of the neck.

However, there is nothing wrong with full sizing the entire case each time.
 
tenring said:
However, there is nothing wrong with full sizing the entire case each time

Yeah there is something wrong with FL sizing necks;
#1 All sizing is a bad thing, and more than needed is worse.
#2 It causes tension variance.
#3 Unless necks are turned, it immediately causes a donut, which adds to #2.

If you have control over the length of sizing, 1cal length up to 75% of total neck length works to reduce ES.
Now, I expect someone will suggest a champion FL sizes their necks. Well I suggest they shouldn't and would do even better if they didn't.
 
I only do as much of the neck to hold the bullet sometime less than one caliber. Some only as far as the bullet goes into the neck.

The only difernce is when I am single loading. I neck size less and more to hold the full bullet when working from a mag or clip.
 
Manny,
It would seem that your question is perfect for an experiment. Let us know the results.
Boyd
 
Manny,
Welcome to the forum :)
I believe the key to accuracy is consistency so I full length size my brass every time, bump the shoulder .001 and control my neck sizing length with my bushing adjustment, I let the gun and group size dictate how much I size the neck.
Wayne.
 
JRS
Maybe Tony could do even better!
Competitive BR requires FL sizing of bodies atleast. But this is due to more factors than neck sizing.
Case bodies can be FL sized, while partially neck sizing.
Do you know if Tony tried this? Does Tony shoot 6BR?
Can you provide an actual basis for FL sizing of necks being beneficial over partial sizing?

Bozo, I think you're wrong w/regard to every single thing you just said. I believe you could not stretch to basis for any of it. Just sayin..

Manny, what dies are you using?
If you do 'experiment' with this, you should atleast shoot a ladder with each setting, as to first consider the affect of each adjustment. With this you might then develop the best of each for comparison, rather than pulling dice from a hat.
 
bushing dies cause donuts. ?!?!?!

dang donuts. I cant seem to figure out what causes them and what doesnt. Everything in the world causes them and dang near nothing short of neck turning gets rid of them.

I don't think all busing dies cause donuts.
 
Manny,
I am sorry for your thread getting turned around, if you really want to find out what is best I suggest giving Boyd Allen or fdshuster a p.m they will give you a answer you can count on with out all the hassle, best of luck to you my friend.
Wayne.
 
Bushing dies DO NOT cause donuts.
That is, until Bozo can provide any basis otherwise.
Bozo tell us how partial neck sizing with bushings causes donuts.
Tell us how bushings cause brass to flow forward with repeated firings..

JRS
As long as you try to follow a leader, you are just a follower.
In other words, Tony Boyer probably knows what he's doing. BUT YOU DON'T.
If you did, you wouldn't hold Tony's actions as your only basis. You could provide some of your own.
Give me one actual reason, or even YOUR opinion, why FL sizing of necks is better than partial sizing of necks.

All of you, take a moment and consider the chasm between sizing and acquiring HOF points. Then consider how offensive it is for you to tie your weak notions -to this achievement..
That's not at all what I'm doing. MY basis is MY experience and reasoning, and not a notion of somebody else's.
I can go deeper into my basis. But first, I need any of you to provide counter basis -of your own.
If it's a debate, well that's how it works.
 
mikecr,

When I can follow in the footsteps of those such as Tony Boyer, Mid & Nacny Thompkins, David Tubb, Michelle & Sherri Gallagher, etc, etc, etc, I will gladly be a follower ;) :D Yes, they all full length size ;D.
The defense rests :)
 
A doughnut is a thickening at the base of the neck, where it meets the shoulder that is caused by anything that causes the thicker shoulder brass to move up into the base of the neck. When chambers that are designed for a close fit to loaded rounds (with either turned or unturned necks) are combined with bullets that are seated so that their shanks (the full diameter part of the bullet) are in the same area that this thickening has occurred, the diameter of the loaded round may be larger than the chamber (within a narrow band), causing excessive pressure, that can degrade accuracy, and which also may be a safety issue. If the chamber has more room, there may still be a problem with increased bullet pull that varies from round to round due to non-uniformity of the problem.

Now we get to the root of the problem. How do doughnuts come about? There can be more than one cause. Let me give you an example. When I make Lapua .220 Russian cases into 6PPCs, in order not to have excessive bolt closing force when fire forming, I have to turn a little bit (note precise terminology) into the case shoulder. If I don't do this, and simply force the bolt to close, the case will have a doughnut, without ever having been fired or sized, because the chamber, and bolt, acting like a one piece die,and shell holder, forced some of what started out as the shoulder of the case, up into the neck. Of course this all takes place without the case ever seeing a bushing.

In normal use, when a case that did not have a doughnut after it was fire formed, is sized in a FL die that reduces its body diameter, and is set to bump back its shoulder, the brass from the body diameter reduction, and shoulder bump has to go somewhere. It gets shoved into the base of the neck when the case is sized.

Cartridge design also gets into the mix. Cases that have smaller shoulder angles can be more easily forced forward in their chambers under the force of a heavy firing pin fall, and the force that the primer's explosion exerts on the bottom of the primer pocket. When this happens, the subsequent force of the igniting powder can cause the case to stick to the chamber for most of its length, and if the pressure peak is sufficient, the case will stretch, just in front of it's head, as the head comes back to the bolt face. With cases of this design, I have found it a good idea not to bump the shoulder any from its first or second fired condition (I set the die so that it measures the same.), when full length sizing, in order not to have a thinning problem (known as an incipient separation) where the case has been forced to stretch when fired. In an informal way, I have said that this may reduce the amount that the case is knocked forward by the firing pin and primer, by not letting it "get a run at it" . It is hard to bend something with a hammer if you are not allowed a back swing.

In any case, I have said this by way of explanation of why I disagree (respectfully, and I hope politely) with the idea that bushing dies cause doughnuts. The section of the neck that the bushing does not reach in just that. It may or may not be coincident with a doughnut, and IMO, one does not cause the other.

Some time ago, I ran across a phrase. Correlation does not prove causation. On a lighter and less respectful note, I have sometimes made reference to the "cargo cult" of some the New Guinea aborigines.

Boyd

Boyd
 
Boyd,
Thank you for the excellent explanation, as per usual I have learned something from your post.

Manny,
I again am sorry for getting your post off topic I will remove my negative post
and wish you the best.
Wayne.
 
Thxs You Gentlemen,

For the following info, I've decided that I'll experiment with sizing my necks at .030" to start with and working them down 3/4 way down. I'll keep you Gentlemen post of the results within the next several days. Working dayshift and temp at 110 degree's here in AZ gotta doing my shooting at 5am. Hot.....Hot...
Thanks Again
Respectfully
Manny Sanchez
 

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