How far can one "reduce" a load?

[Infrequent Shooter]

Something that needs to be addressed with reduced loading is the (possible) use of fillers to keep the powder against the base of the cases.

I second and third this. Years ago, plenty of good shooters and writers either used this method, or wrote that it worked in certain combinations.

 

[SEM]

For the IMR and H powders I use synthetic cotton balls and magnum primers, For field use pull what is needed lightly fill over the charge, for the range I use just enough to cover the charge, transport bullet up

My preferred powders are either pistol or shotgun that are not position sensitive

 

[7br]

It’s a real shame that two of the best powders ever for reduced loads aren’t available anymore. Trailboss and IMR4759 were perfect for safe reduced loads with no need to worry about using fillers. I have enough of both for my present and future needs, but since it seems neither will see production in the coming years I stocked up with some 5744 back before the prices shot up just because I get paranoid about things like that. If you have, or can get your hands on any of these three powders, published data isn’t difficult to find. They all work well, especially in my 45/70s and 375 H&H. Pleasant shooting without sacrificing accuracy. BE SAFE!!

 

[Lefty2506]

Let me start this with this.... DO NOT USE LOAD DATA UNLESS ITS FROM A REPUTABLE POWDER COMPANY , EVER... There's plenty of data for subsonic loads in the AR platform published using powders you wouldn't normally dare use in a rifle... That will as far as I understand cycle the action etc.... normally used for subsonic and the use of a suppressor....I won't bother telling you anything about where to look because I don't know anything about you or your experience level.... Please don't take that in a bad way because it's not meant to be , it's all about safety.... If you fill up a rifle cartridge with these powders it will not be subsonic it will blow up like a hand grenade that you will be holding by your face.... But if done correctly it will be fine , I can't believe a powder company would publish anything dangerous...

I don't like these kind of loads because I don't have a suppressor for an AR because to me you have spent thousands to make a .22lr that is fairly silent using a heavy copper coated bullet instead of a lead bullet.... This can be done a lot cheaper just buying a suppressor for a .22lr , I understand it's two completely different applications.... For your coons etc if you can use a rimfire try the ELEY FORCE brand ammo it hits very hard...

Maybe some clarification would help. I developed that load in the early 2000s and still use it today. I started reloading in 1993. Yes, there's lots of load data available from the manufacturers, a lot more today than there was in 1993. Still, it's surprising, even depressing at times, just how many gaps there are in the data even today. For instance, last time I looked, I couldn't find published data for using N133 behind a 53gr .224 Vmax. Even more discouraging is how much variation there is for the exact same load that's published by multiple sources (Hornady vs Hodgdon for example).

I've used 22 lr to dispatch coons and groundhogs in the past. Problem is that the animal doesn't always die where I shoot it. Under 75yds its pretty easy to get a headshot, but 75 - 100 yds, getting a headshot on an impromptu encounter is more iffy. I want it dead on the spot so I can dispose of the carcass instead of having to smell it rotting from its den for the next 3 weeks, or drag itself under the neighbors deck (they call me to deal with their pest issues). I also want the bullet moving fast enough on impact to ensure rapid expansion. I don't want a 22lr slug that holds together if it only encounters soft tissue.

The reason I chose green dot at the time is that the lowest charge I ever tried still filled the 223 case over half full, and that charge was safe to use with a 230gr 45acp which has a max allowable pressure of 21,000 psi (less than 1/3 the pressure a 5.56 is rated for). I completely understood that pressures can increase drastically with very small changes in volumes, so that published 45acp load was my starting point. My main concern was whether or not the load would generate enough pressure to even properly ignite since it was only pushing a 40gr vmax. I tested from 5.5 gr up to 9.0 gr in small increments, checking the brass and primers along the way with no signs of pressure. We've now used thousands of rounds of this load on prairie dogs with great success. I've tuned this load for 4 different rifles now, and found that all of them had a sweet spot between 7 and 8 grains.

 

[Rsadams]

Maybe some clarification would help. I developed that load in the early 2000s and still use it today. I started reloading in 1993. Yes, there's lots of load data available from the manufacturers, a lot more today than there was in 1993. Still, it's surprising, even depressing at times, just how many gaps there are in the data even today. For instance, last time I looked, I couldn't find published data for using N133 behind a 53gr .224 Vmax. Even more discouraging is how much variation there is for the exact same load that's published by multiple sources (Hornady vs Hodgdon for example).

I've used 22 lr to dispatch coons and groundhogs in the past. Problem is that the animal doesn't always die where I shoot it. Under 75yds its pretty easy to get a headshot, but 75 - 100 yds, getting a headshot on an impromptu encounter is more iffy. I want it dead on the spot so I can dispose of the carcass instead of having to smell it rotting from its den for the next 3 weeks, or drag itself under the neighbors deck (they call me to deal with their pest issues). I also want the bullet moving fast enough on impact to ensure rapid expansion. I don't want a 22lr slug that holds together if it only encounters soft tissue.

The reason I chose green dot at the time is that the lowest charge I ever tried still filled the 223 case over half full, and that charge was safe to use with a 230gr 45acp which has a max allowable pressure of 21,000 psi (less than 1/3 the pressure a 5.56 is rated for). I completely understood that pressures can increase drastically with very small changes in volumes, so that published 45acp load was my starting point. My main concern was whether or not the load would generate enough pressure to even properly ignite since it was only pushing a 40gr vmax. I tested from 5.5 gr up to 9.0 gr in small increments, checking the brass and primers along the way with no signs of pressure. We've now used thousands of rounds of this load on prairie dogs with great success. I've tuned this load for 4 different rifles now, and found that all of them had a sweet spot between 7 and 8 grains.

That's great, I hate to post about reducing loads like I said in my post because when using certain powders that are called for you can get into trouble rather quickly.... I am always worried about someone new to reloading thinking about it and getting a boom...

 

[Lefty2506]

That's great, I hate to post about reducing loads like I said in my post because when using certain powders that are called for you can get into trouble rather quickly.... I am always worried about someone new to reloading thinking about it and getting a boom...

Totally understand. Something that crossed my mind but I absentmindedly forgot to type out is that I sincerely appreciate the warning and concern. It is well warranted.

 

[Rsadams]

Totally understand. Something that crossed my mind but I absentmindedly forgot to type out is that I sincerely appreciate the warning and concern. It is well warranted.

I think we all forget that some people are brand new to our sport which most of the time ends up with reloading.... Or even the fact that maybe a person might not be in the pursuit of the absolute best accuracy they can get , maybe just loading for bulk etc... Or even that our level of experience is way higher than someone who has been doing it for the same amount of time....

I tell people all the time reloading is very safe as long as you follow the majority of the rules... I hate to even say that because you should be following ALL the rules... People are worried about the powder but as most of us know the primers are the dangerous part of the process.... In over a decade I have never had a problem with a primer but I still worry about it when handling them.... I have literally stopped people from buying a powder when they had a basket of new reloading equipment and they said ohhh there's a difference.... Scary huh...

I have a friend that reloads , the fact he hasn't blown himself up or burned his house down which almost happened when he of all things dropped a cigarette in a bowl of 1000 loose primers.... There's still parts of the primers in the ceiling... It proves you have to make a pretty big mistake.... Unfortunately doing something like not paying attention and loading a rifle cartridge with pistol powder is normally the last mistake you make... This reason is why I always empty my powder hoppers when finished and put the powder back in the bottle....Its easy enough to fill it again if needed... When I look at reduced rifle loads using pistol powder it scares me that someone might not understand what will happen if you put to much...

After working at a gun range for a decade and still spending several days a week on it shooting I have seen some crazy stuff , some groups from people that have conceal carry license that would be better from a shotgun firing buckshot at 75 yards etc... Just the other day I called for a cold range to let everyone change or tape off their targets to turn around and see an idiot with an AR still loaded , full mag , one in the chamber screwing with his red dot... I to say the least wasn't happy when I asked him did you not hear me are you going to unload that damn rifle... People like that get one warning and if they do something like that or anything stupid in my presence won't be coming back , ever... Shooting is not dangerous but stupid people with guns are very dangerous and there's a lot of them out there....

It's not just newbies either I watched a trainer with their little vest on that says the name of their company on the back blow a hole in the ground with a 12ga while talking about gun safety.... There's was 8 other people around them on a skeet field when it happened... Thank God the pellets hit soft dirt instead of the concrete walkway and didn't splatter into everyone shins and feet...She wasn't happy when I told her , hey keep your booger flicker off the boom switch and that won't happen as she tried to play it off like nothing happened...I have made it fifty years in shooting without any extra holes and that includes several years as a LEO.... Unfortunately since a lot of people have bought guns because of politics and the shape of America lately who would have never owned guns before are 40 year old newbies and their dangerous.... Be careful out there , don't trust people to have any sense especially common sense whatsoever...

 

[Lefty2506]

I know exactly what you mean. Several years ago we had a local college gun club close down because after being repeatedly instructed by the RO not to do so (and why), an educated idiot decided to fire his bolt action 223 rifle while it was partially out of battery. He was trying to run cheap 5.56 NATO ammo in it and couldn't get the bolt to close all the way. It sent the bolt and parts of the receiver back through the side of his face, and of course the parents sued the school over it. The young man survived and has likely sense continued to further pollute the gene pool, but the club was disbanded. Through that club, we had taught firearm safety to thousands of young men and women over the years. Between that event, and some of the stupid things I've had to stop students from doing during classes, I've largely stepped away from formally instructing students. It was a decent source of cash for funding my ammo addiction, but the risk of an idiot finally winning the Darwin lottery just isn't worth it to me. I'll still teach someone, but only if I can call them an stupid eff'n idiot when they act like one.

 

[Infrequent Shooter]

As was mentioned here by others, H4895 is the go-to for reduced loads according to Hodgdon now. The problem is finding some. Same with some of the other powders listed like Trail Boss or 5744. (And as an aside, you can probably load everything there is with 5744, it may not be optimal, but it'll work)
I have a friend that bought a Savage Axis in .270, and that thing kicked and had a lot of muzzle blast. I loaded the 120SST bullet intended for the 6.8SPC for him using IMR4895, at about 2500FPS, and that is way less offensive to shoot, less blast and less recoil. We'll be hunting whitetails in the woods at less than 100 yards, so I thing this will serve him well.

There was a time when the two 4895s were considered the same. They're not. That said, with a little due diligence, you can find reduced loads for whatever cartridge you want to work on. The Lyman Cast Bullet manual is a fantastic place to start, and will open your eyes to lots of possibilities that you never even knew were possible. If you're hunting, keep in mind that different bullets are designed to work at different velocities, and try to stay within the design window if at all possible.

it sounds like a lot of reduced loads were mated to cast bullets, if this is true, I am trying to get my head around the difference.

 

[BigBolt]

Reduced loads to below known published rates = squibs you will blow up your gun kid.

 

[brokeasajoke]

it sounds like a lot of reduced loads were mated to cast bullets, if this is true, I am trying to get my head around the difference.

Cast will slip down the barrel with less resistance. I've stuck a jacketed but so far never a cast. Hodgdon lists a pistol powder load for .223 and I've shot quite a few of them over the years. I still don't but it is a novelty with 22lr prices where they are vs an 8-10 cent primer plus bullet.

Edit: if anyone has a .224 cast bullet supplier let me know. Maybe I should just buy a mold.

 

[Infrequent Shooter]

Cast will slip down the barrel with less resistance. I've stuck a jacketed but so far never a cast. Hodgdon lists a pistol powder load for .223 and I've shot quite a few of them over the years. I still don't but it is a novelty with 22lr prices where they are vs an 8-10 cent primer plus bullet.

Edit: if anyone has a .224 cast bullet supplier let me know. Maybe I should just buy a mold.

and I have read they can be very accurate

 

[Rickhem]

it sounds like a lot of reduced loads were mated to cast bullets, if this is true, I am trying to get my head around the difference.

As was mentioned by brokeasajoke, the cast bullets move down the bore "easier" than jacketed. They need less of a push to get going......less friction.

You are also limited to lower velocity loads when using cast bullets, as too high velocities will lead up your barrel. Not sure if it is because the higher pressures pushing harder on the bullet make the lead in contact with the bore melt, or if the lead just can't handle those higher pressures. There are different formulations of the lead to make it harder for this purpose. Very high pressure loads with lead bullets in handguns use a gas check, which is a copper base on the lead bullet, to help protect it from the heat and pressure of the burning powder.

So know that the pressure curve with a lead bullet will be different than with a jacketed bullet. Same as how a boat-tail bullet will have a different pressure curve than a flat-base bullet of equal weight. But lots of people will use a published load with a lead bullet, and substitute a jacketed bullet, and end up with what could be called a reduced load.

 

[Lefty2506]

You are also limited to lower velocity loads when using cast bullets, as too high velocities will lead up your barrel. Not sure if it is because the higher pressures pushing harder on the bullet make the lead in contact with the bore melt, or if the lead just can't handle those higher pressures. There are different formulations of the lead to make it harder for this purpose. Very high pressure loads with lead bullets in handguns use a gas check, which is a copper base on the lead bullet, to help protect it from the heat and pressure of the burning powder.

FWIW, cast lead bullets normally start developing accuracy issues around 2100-2200 fps. The explanation that I've been told is that at those speeds, the friction between the air the surface of the lead projectile is enough to allow the surface of the projectile to start to deform. No idea if this is true or not. I Just know that I've not been able to maintain any appreciable accuracy at or above 2200 fps with non-jacketed lead projectiles.