How exactly is seating depth changes causing the tightening of group size?

[bozo699]

I have forgotten what this thread is even about, but the bottom line is seating depth changes is a PROVEN way to shrink groups, the guy's I shoot with at 1k fine tune there loads in this manner, I have seen it time and time again, it isn't a myth it isn't a maybe, it is a fact!!! that your groups WILL shrink once you find your ocw, primer selection, then fine tune with seating depth. You can discuss it on here tell the cows come home, break it down, analyze it to death, it works period the end, how do you unsubscribe from a thread, other forums give that option, this one has become ridiculous .
Wayne.

You are not the only one, even the OP.... : Use the "unnotify" buttom on the bottom.

jlow,
I have a reply, notify,mark unread,send this topic, and print buttons, no "unnotify" I am sorry but it is just ridiculous to discuss a proven fact, it would be like arguing powder selection and the amount of it wouldn't effect group size or velocity, : ??? it's crazy!!! because I don't think it effects group size I KNOW IT DOES!!! Boyd, I am sorry my friend I just don't have your finesse, patience!! or fortitude, my hat is wyyyyyyyyyyyyyy off to you my friend, best of luck with this thred
Wyne.

 

[jlow]

I have forgotten what this thread is even about, but the bottom line is seating depth changes is a PROVEN way to shrink groups, the guy's I shoot with at 1k fine tune there loads in this manner, I have seen it time and time again, it isn't a myth it isn't a maybe, it is a fact!!! that your groups WILL shrink once you find your ocw, primer selection, then fine tune with seating depth. You can discuss it on here tell the cows come home, break it down, analyze it to death, it works period the end, how do you unsubscribe from a thread, other forums give that option, this one has become ridiculous .
Wayne.

Sorry Wayne but I beat you to it already - LOL!
You are not the only one, even the OP.... : Use the "unnotify" buttom on the bottom.

jlow,
I have a reply, notify,mark unread,send this topic, and print buttons, no "unnotify" I am sorry but it is just ridiculous to discuss a proven fact, it would be like arguing powder selection and the amount of it wouldn't effect group size or velocity, : ??? it's crazy!!! because I don't think it effects group size I KNOW IT DOES!!! Boyd, I am sorry my friend I just don't have your finesse, patience!! or fortitude, my hat is wyyyyyyyyyyyyyy off to you my friend, best of luck with this thred
Wyne.

 

[bozo699]

I have forgotten what this thread is even about, but the bottom line is seating depth changes is a PROVEN way to shrink groups, the guy's I shoot with at 1k fine tune there loads in this manner, I have seen it time and time again, it isn't a myth it isn't a maybe, it is a fact!!! that your groups WILL shrink once you find your ocw, primer selection, then fine tune with seating depth. You can discuss it on here tell the cows come home, break it down, analyze it to death, it works period the end, how do you unsubscribe from a thread, other forums give that option, this one has become ridiculous .
Wayne.

Sorry Wayne but I beat you to it already - LOL!
You are not the only one, even the OP.... : Use the "unnotify" buttom on the bottom.

jlow,
I have a reply, notify,mark unread,send this topic, and print buttons, no "unnotify" I am sorry but it is just ridiculous to discuss a proven fact, it would be like arguing powder selection and the amount of it wouldn't effect group size or velocity, : ??? it's crazy!!! because I don't think it effects group size I KNOW IT DOES!!! Boyd, I am sorry my friend I just don't have your finesse, patience!! or fortitude, my hat is wyyyyyyyyyyyyyy off to you my friend, best of luck with this thred
Wyne.

I am not sure what you were trying to tell me in your last post other then I cn't even spell my own name right : but I lso wish you the best in your quest my friend, I guess I just don't care, if it works use it and if it don't don't, that is the kind of guy I am
Wayne.

 

[Bradley Walker]

because I don't think it effects group size I KNOW IT DOES!!!

Anywhere in this thread did ANYONE say that seating depth DOES NOT EFFECT GROUP SIZE??? No.

Man... really....

The thread is

HOW does seating depth effect accuracy...

Which no one has yet to answer with any real certainty. So, your response is really just condescending to anyone who wants to discuss HOW seating depth effects accuracy, by you saying YOU "DON'T CARE" and the conversation is just stupid.

I don't think anyone has inferred that it doesn't effect accuracy. Quite the contrary, everyone seems to agree that it does...

 

[jo191145]

Lets not forget the pressure wave theory ;D

In the end it does'nt matter why it works so long as one is willing to test and verify.

My first post from page 1
I'm glad to see your all coming around to my way of thinking ;D ;D ;D ;D Just funnin with ya all.

Mr Bradley Walker. If you check my signature you'll find I hold "The Secrets" in high regard.
Its that one sentence on seating depths that I've seen proven correct many times. Not always but many. Enjoy the read and heed the sentence. It may work well for you someday.

Wayne, theres an unsubmit link in every email notification. Take Care Wayne and never stray too far

 

[mikecr]

Given that even the guy who wants to unsubscribe -and then posts a couple more times, agrees that seating tightens groups, then maybe we can accept as well that seating also OPENS groups..
Let's not forget the significance of this part(possibly the largest) in any understanding tested.

I wonder how many pages would have followed the question "How exactly is seating depth causing HUGE OPENING of group size?"..
It does ya know.
Often moreso than powder, or primers, or neck tension.
You can double or triple grouping with seating alone.

 

[300 RUM]

Often moreso than powder, or primers, or neck tension.
You can double or triple grouping with seating alone.

Some where between a .015" jamb and a .150" jump there lies a perfect seating depth that will yield 1/4 MOA groups with alomost any case,powder, primer or neck tension.

 

[bozo699]

because I don't think it effects group size I KNOW IT DOES!!!

Anywhere in this thread did ANYONE say that seating depth DOES NOT EFFECT GROUP SIZE??? No.

Man... really....

The thread is

HOW does seating depth effect accuracy...

Which no one has yet to answer with any real certainty. So, your response is really just condescending to anyone who wants to discuss HOW seating depth effects accuracy, by you saying YOU "DON'T CARE" and the conversation is just stupid.

I don't think anyone has inferred that it doesn't effect accuracy. Quite the contrary, everyone seems to agree that it does...

Bradley,
I have saved this in my unread posts for a very long time, I didn't want to post anymore on the subject at the time but I have calmed down now and I am sure you have as well so could you explain to me the difference between the two, group size and accuracy,....in my world they are one and the same!
Very sincerely Wayne.

 

[BoydAllen]

So many times folks get into long and quarrelsome discussions about how something that they cannot directly observe works. I think that in most cases they would be better of comparing notes about procedures and the results that have happened when they did a particular thing, or made some change. The simple truth is that these arguments are mostly about whose imagining is correct. In this case I think that I can say that no one knows to a scientific certainty why very small changes in seating depth seem to have such a disproportionate effect on group size, but as long as we have a method of dealing with this uncertainty that works, we can get along pretty well. There, argue about that. ;D

 

[Steve Blair]

I agree, Boyd. A senior engineer, for whom I worked at the time, said "We always want to know why but sometimes we have to settle for works."

 

[bozo699]

Boyd,Steve,
I don't think it works I know it does, my question is what is the difference given the question asked between group size and accuracy? Small or smaller group size is better accuracy,..ie, finding the optimal seating depth, larger group size is less accuracy or bad group size!
Wayne.

 

[rvn1968]

I think that if you want VarmintAl,he is quite busywith his own website:Varmintal.com.The boss can tell you how time consuming that is.FWIW,Tom

 

[bozo699]

I think that if you want VarmintAl,he is quite busywith his own website:Varmintal.com.The boss can tell you how time consuming that is.FWIW,Tom

Tom,
What does Varmint Al have to do with all this ? He has some very interesting articles but closing up group size with seating depth is just a fact of life in both short range and long range shooting, what does it have to do with shrinking group size?.....it's just part of tuning you load
Wayne.

 

[jlow]

because I don't think it effects group size I KNOW IT DOES!!!

Anywhere in this thread did ANYONE say that seating depth DOES NOT EFFECT GROUP SIZE??? No.

Man... really....

The thread is

HOW does seating depth effect accuracy...

Which no one has yet to answer with any real certainty. So, your response is really just condescending to anyone who wants to discuss HOW seating depth effects accuracy, by you saying YOU "DON'T CARE" and the conversation is just stupid.

I don't think anyone has inferred that it doesn't effect accuracy. Quite the contrary, everyone seems to agree that it does...

Bradley,
I have saved this in my unread posts for a very long time, I didn't want to post anymore on the subject at the time but I have calmed down now and I am sure you have as well so could you explain to me the difference between the two, group size and accuracy,....in my world they are one and the same!
Very sincerely Wayne.

Slightly off topic from my original post as it relates to the mechanics of tightening groups with changes in seating depth, but as to your question Wayne, by definition, group size only describes precision i.e. being able to do something in a repeatable manner in this case putting rounds close together. Accuracy relates to being able to put rounds in a specific area i.e. in most cases the X-ring.

So it is possible to be absolutely precise i.e. having one hole group but be completely inaccurate i.e. way off the x-ring. Accurate but not precise which would be spread out MOA wise but the average center is the center of the X-ring. Lastly both absolutely accurate and precise which would be a one hole group dead center on the X-ring.

Hope this scientific description does not bug you too much! :-\

 

[rvn1968]

Wayne,I just started to read this post and in the first few pages people were looking for Al.

 

[bozo699]

because I don't think it effects group size I KNOW IT DOES!!!

Anywhere in this thread did ANYONE say that seating depth DOES NOT EFFECT GROUP SIZE??? No.

Man... really....

The thread is

HOW does seating depth effect accuracy...

Which no one has yet to answer with any real certainty. So, your response is really just condescending to anyone who wants to discuss HOW seating depth effects accuracy, by you saying YOU "DON'T CARE" and the conversation is just stupid.

I don't think anyone has inferred that it doesn't effect accuracy. Quite the contrary, everyone seems to agree that it does...

Bradley,
I have saved this in my unread posts for a very long time, I didn't want to post anymore on the subject at the time but I have calmed down now and I am sure you have as well so could you explain to me the difference between the two, group size and accuracy,....in my world they are one and the same!
Very sincerely Wayne.

Slightly off topic from my original post as it relates to the mechanics of tightening groups with changes in seating depth, but as to your question Wayne, by definition, group size only describes precision i.e. being able to do something in a repeatable manner in this case putting rounds close together. Accuracy relates to being able to put rounds in a specific area i.e. in most cases the X-ring.

So it is possible to be absolutely precise i.e. having one hole group but be completely inaccurate i.e. way off the x-ring. Accurate but not precise which would be spread out MOA wise but the average center is the center of the X-ring. Lastly both absolutely accurate and precise which would be a one hole group dead center on the X-ring.

Hope this scientific description does not bug you too much! :-\

Nope not at all, I just feel your wrong as per usual, I shoot for both so either way I am a winner if I do one or the other, if I put 10 shots in the 5 ring in 2.5" I am a world record holder so I precisely and accurately put them all there
Wayne.

 

[bozo699]

Wayne,I just started to read this post and in the first few pages people were looking for Al.

I know that and he had nothing to do with it then either
Wayne.

 

[expiper]

its a long story

it seems like evrybdy has an opinion/idea on this subj....mine are based on the thoughts and experiences of the old timers I have known and shot with/against....most of the best of them feel it is not directly pressure related...but more of a timing of when the bullet engages the rifleing which affects/determins the pressure curve/burn time of the powder being used,,,I hear som shooters say that bullet x,y,z need jump or jam,,,but in reality it is the powder type bing used with that particular bullet,,,in a 6mmBR using powders with a faster burn rate (133/322/4198/etc)that are used with 60-80 gr bullets, most find jam to work...but as the bu'llets get larger/heavier and the powders get slower (4895/540/Rx-15/etc) for the 105 class of bullets many find jump to work better .....I see it much more evident with the 7mm and 30 cal boomers .....they typically like lots of jump with the slow powders and huge bullets...ther seems to be a need for time to allow the bullet move a few thou. (I like to use 1/2 of my FB length so the bullet stays piloted in the bore--this is where a long FB is very benificial) before the burn gets a vigorous start...I hope this helps answer the OP's inquiry...IMHO...Roger

 

[jlow]

because I don't think it effects group size I KNOW IT DOES!!!

Anywhere in this thread did ANYONE say that seating depth DOES NOT EFFECT GROUP SIZE??? No.

Man... really....

The thread is

HOW does seating depth effect accuracy...

Which no one has yet to answer with any real certainty. So, your response is really just condescending to anyone who wants to discuss HOW seating depth effects accuracy, by you saying YOU "DON'T CARE" and the conversation is just stupid.

I don't think anyone has inferred that it doesn't effect accuracy. Quite the contrary, everyone seems to agree that it does...

Bradley,
I have saved this in my unread posts for a very long time, I didn't want to post anymore on the subject at the time but I have calmed down now and I am sure you have as well so could you explain to me the difference between the two, group size and accuracy,....in my world they are one and the same!
Very sincerely Wayne.

Slightly off topic from my original post as it relates to the mechanics of tightening groups with changes in seating depth, but as to your question Wayne, by definition, group size only describes precision i.e. being able to do something in a repeatable manner in this case putting rounds close together. Accuracy relates to being able to put rounds in a specific area i.e. in most cases the X-ring.

So it is possible to be absolutely precise i.e. having one hole group but be completely inaccurate i.e. way off the x-ring. Accurate but not precise which would be spread out MOA wise but the average center is the center of the X-ring. Lastly both absolutely accurate and precise which would be a one hole group dead center on the X-ring.

Hope this scientific description does not bug you too much! :-\

Nope not at all, I just feel your wrong as per usual, I shoot for both so either way I am a winner if I do one or the other, if I put 10 shots in the 5 ring in 2.5" I am a world record holder so I precisely and accurately put them all there
Wayne.

LOL!