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How does measuring powder accurately translate to distance accuracy?

There are a lot of things out there that you read that are just ideas. Similar to .1" group at 100 equals 1" at 1k. Well thats math, but it doenst work that way in real life. In this case its so easy to see a .1 powder change at 1k that its becomes very obvious that you want to weigh to the kernel. To comment on the .1gn eqauls 1" at 1k... that only tells me they have not tested it, only did the math. .1 may move the group nothing or it may move it 6" or more depending on where its at in the node.
 
There are a lot of things out there that you read that are just ideas. Similar to .1" group at 100 equals 1" at 1k. Well thats math, but it doenst work that way in real life. In this case its so easy to see a .1 powder change at 1k that its becomes very obvious that you want to weigh to the kernel. To comment on the .1gn eqauls 1" at 1k... that only tells me they have not tested it, only did the math. .1 may move the group nothing or it may move it 6" or more depending on where its at in the node.

I agree that testing (shooting at distance) is the best tell. However, for those that don’t have easy access to 1000 yard ranges, but want to develop loads for such, is measuring muzzle velocity then calculating ES and SD a good indicator?
 
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I go the extra mile on my long range loads. AS stated above trim my Varget to equal weight.
Check my Primers for weight and reset anvils.

I still don't Win Matches , but my stuff is right on .

True story . I do shot Palma and go the fine tune my Ammo....
My very good Friend and Palma Shooter just shot a 450-25X score at a very windy Range in Central Oregon ... ( Berger 155 HB on this Ammo)

This is His Loading System . New Laupa SP Brass out of the box add a Primer . Through a charge of Varget ( 46.5) check about every 10 through.
Put a 155 gr, Bullet on top at .020 - .030 off. Go shoot a Match.

If he opens a new Lot of Varget still 46.5 gr. If the loads look a little Hot He down loads the next time .
 
In the military the term "MAXIMUM EFFECTIVE " or ME ie the shooter is used. In any shooting including small bore or 22 lr shooting there are 3 factors to consider; 1. ammo, 2. the weapon , and the shooter. In this discussion most are commenting on only one part of the ammo. There are ; the primer, the case Volume , and the powder charge weight. No one can look at a tray of 100 primers and pick 10 that are going to burn at the same intensity. While some will weigh their cases, how many fill a sized case with the spent primer still in place and weigh the the water so as to sort cases by their volume ?
Weapons built for 1000 yd shooting are built to the standards of or greater than open heart surgery. So this leaves the ME ; ie, "master trigger linkage "or shooter.
And at 600 yds. and greater if the shooter and or his spotter cannot read or "dope" the wind, then weighting powder charges to .01 or even .001 gn. of powder is just something to talk about.
 
There are two effects that are pertinent here. First is the raw velocity. The impact of this is easy to figure out with quickLOAD and a ballistics calculator. See what .02 grains of powder does to velocity, and then see what that difference does to impact at 1,000 yards. This tells you the impact of a 0.02 grain difference *ASSUMING ALL ELSE EUQAL*. It's that last part that makes people scoff at or doubt calculations. All else is never equal. Changes in temperature, primer variation, the way the powder settles, etc - they all change things, even if just a little. But on average, this is a good method.

The second effect is positive compensation due to barrel vibration. Small changes in powder can result in meaningful differences in the bullet's initial launch angle and lateral velocity, and if you get it just right, this can cancel out other errors and result in smaller groups. Unfortunately, there is no way to calculate this with the accuracy required in order to get around testing it.

If you ask long range benchrest shooters (which I am not), they're going to tell you that it's the second effect that dominates *when trying to shoot tiny groups*. This is what they mean by "tuning" the gun. The velocity difference of .02 grains is small, but they're not looking at raw velocity and it's impact on drop or wind, they're looking at the impact on how the bullet leaves the bore, and trying to get that to encourage small groups. Since it's such a complex system, you have to try it to find out what matters and what doesn't.
 
........... No one can look at a tray of 100 primers and pick 10 that are going to burn at the same intensity. ..............

Baddog0302

I'm not disagreeing with you here but this is where this part of the equation falls apart IMO.

I'm blessed with a home range situation, essentially the ability to shoot out my reloading room window. So I can load/shoot under controlled conditions with every round over the chronograph. Or three or four chronographs if I'm doubting veracity...... and when I can easily achieve <10 fps ES WITHOUT sorting primers I tend to let that one lay :)
 
the more people that do not sort primers at long range the better. i was a non-believer.
when my friends can show my DATA on targets, i changed.
please do not weigh your primers.
Baddog0302

I'm not disagreeing with you here but this is where this part of the equation falls apart IMO.

I'm blessed with a home range situation, essentially the ability to shoot out my reloading room window. So I can load/shoot under controlled conditions with every round over the chronograph. Or three or four chronographs if I'm doubting veracity...... and when I can easily achieve <10 fps ES WITHOUT sorting primers I tend to let that one lay :)
 
i do not use a "weapon" for target shooting, i use a TARGET RIFLE.
in 50 plus years of TARGET shooting, i have never been attacked by a target.

In the military the term "MAXIMUM EFFECTIVE " or ME ie the shooter is used. In any shooting including small bore or 22 lr shooting there are 3 factors to consider; 1. ammo, 2. the weapon , and the shooter. In this discussion most are commenting on only one part of the ammo. There are ; the primer, the case Volume , and the powder charge weight. No one can look at a tray of 100 primers and pick 10 that are going to burn at the same intensity. While some will weigh their cases, how many fill a sized case with the spent primer still in place and weigh the the water so as to sort cases by their volume ?
Weapons built for 1000 yd shooting are built to the standards of or greater than open heart surgery. So this leaves the ME ; ie, "master trigger linkage "or shooter.
And at 600 yds. and greater if the shooter and or his spotter cannot read or "dope" the wind, then weighting powder charges to .01 or even .001 gn. of powder is just something to talk about.
 
With my gun I see about a 5 fps difference per .1 grain of powder. Each kernel of weighs about .02 on my gempro. Making each kernel worth about 1 fps. Now this varies slightly depending how close you are to a node.
 
It probably would be a waste of time to try to weight a charged to the 3'd digit. You would have to cut kernels of powder. A kernel of Varget averages .02 grain but they are not all exactly the same. There are so many other variables that you probably could never find an answer. A tiny variation in neck tension or friction or a slight difference in case volume can also make a difference. Differences in bullets (even the same lot) vary quite a bit in size and weight. Hardness of the brass varies even after annealing. Carbon and copper in the bore/chamber can change things. Variations in temperature of the powder and even the barrel/chamber will cause variations in pressure and velocity. I'm try to keep my sanity (or what's left of it) and limit my loads to .02 grains.

This is 2/100ths grain of 2 different powders.
02g.jpg
 
There are two effects that are pertinent here. First is the raw velocity. The impact of this is easy to figure out with quickLOAD and a ballistics calculator. See what .02 grains of powder does to velocity, and then see what that difference does to impact at 1,000 yards. This tells you the impact of a 0.02 grain difference *ASSUMING ALL ELSE EUQAL*. It's that last part that makes people scoff at or doubt calculations. All else is never equal. Changes in temperature, primer variation, the way the powder settles, etc - they all change things, even if just a little. But on average, this is a good method.

The second effect is positive compensation due to barrel vibration. Small changes in powder can result in meaningful differences in the bullet's initial launch angle and lateral velocity, and if you get it just right, this can cancel out other errors and result in smaller groups. Unfortunately, there is no way to calculate this with the accuracy required in order to get around testing it.

If you ask long range benchrest shooters (which I am not), they're going to tell you that it's the second effect that dominates *when trying to shoot tiny groups*. This is what they mean by "tuning" the gun. The velocity difference of .02 grains is small, but they're not looking at raw velocity and it's impact on drop or wind, they're looking at the impact on how the bullet leaves the bore, and trying to get that to encourage small groups. Since it's such a complex system, you have to try it to find out what matters and what doesn't.

I’ve learned via chrono that my ES is in the range of 15/20 FPS using a scale having +/- .1 grain resolution. Berger’s ballistic calculator indicates that this could change the vertical POI by ~5” at 1000 yards (all other factors being the same). That said, I’m going to buy a higher resolution scale to determine if less charge weight variation decreases ES...
 
WOW!!! My head is spinning. I do know after I started weighing my charges on my FX120I my groups and scores went up from just using my chargemaster.
 
WOW!!! My head is spinning. I do know after I started weighing my charges on my FX120I my groups and scores went up from just using my chargemaster.

i believe that is pretty standard results. that is if you have a rifle accurate enough to see the difference and the ability to use it.

to each his own. i know the fastest and easiest way to charge cases is to drop charges with my harrells BR powder measure. if i am putting together the most accurate load i possibly can no doubt Adam's autotrickler system along with a bunch of other stuff.
 
i believe that is pretty standard results. that is if you have a rifle accurate enough to see the difference and the ability to use it.

to each his own. i know the fastest and easiest way to charge cases is to drop charges with my harrells BR powder measure. if i am putting together the most accurate load i possibly can no doubt Adam's autotrickler system along with a bunch of other stuff.
Yeah, I shoot F class at mid & long range. For me it did make a difference.
 
If you developed your load utilizing a ladder or similar technique based on identifying a node via positive compensation, weight differences will not matter as much as if the load was chosen based on group size.

For the distance that you tested at & it better be the one you plan to shoot at.
 

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