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How do i keep the group together?

unstable for some reason.
And an unstable bullet is in tune? I respectfully disagree.

Based on what I have personally seen, the shape and size of the bullet hole can tell you things about tune. Some of the best shooters have written the same thing.

Don’t know who you are or what your experience is. Please share.
 
What you're saying about my situation is true. I realize I may not get to the bottom of this via forum conversations. I was hoping to get some suggestions from people who may have been had a similar problem and solved it in some way.

Thank you for the story of your friend having new problems. Would you mind describing the things you noticed that helped his situation?

Thanks -- Todd
It has been a long time but I will try. He was taking some shortcuts with his reloading, not properly attending to some details, getting in a hurry instead of slowing down and getting it as perfect as he could. At 100 yards he was shooting over a couple of flags and the near one, the most important one, had been damaged so that it did not work properly and he had not bothered to to fix it. On his actual shooting of the rifle, he was not following through. There were other things, but as I said it has been years. For you, I suggest a couple of things. Do some dry fire work at the range, paying close attention to how the way you pull the trigger shows up as reticle movement on the target. A friend was having trouble breaking into the ones until dry fire showed him that his trigger pull was the problem. After he fixed that, it solved his problem. Wind flags can have us snatching at very light triggers to catch a fleeting condition. Even with a 2 oz trigger we need to squeeze it rather than pulse it. Shooting free, rifle balance and bags are very important. Years ago I took a little more than an inch off of my barrels in pursuit of better balance for shooting free recoil,. It worked. If your rifle does not have enough weight on the rear bag, and/or the fill in your ears is too much or too little it will have a negative effect on consistency. The list goes on......Little things add up, which is what happened to my friend. After we had him fixed, I had him write it all down, because my experience with helping fellows solve problems is that they would forget the details over time and go back to the ways that caused the problem. I have one suggestion for you. Get a cell phone tripod adapter (Mine cost $10 from Amazon.) and video yourself shooting on a regular basis. If you keep doing the same things your results will remain the same. How do you tune a load? Are you loading at the range?
 
And an unstable bullet is in tune? I respectfully disagree.

Based on what I have personally seen, the shape and size of the bullet hole can tell you things about tune. Some of the best shooters have written the same thing.

Don’t know who you are or what your experience is. Please share.
When a bullet is in the barrel,it rotates around the center of mass...when the bullet leaves the barrel,it rotates around the center of gravity...HOPEFULLY they're the same. Also,while in the barrel the thrust is at the rear of the bullet...when the bullet leaves the barrel there is a reverse thrust to the nose of the bullet...rapid deceleration called drag. Many things can cause a bullet to be unstable even after it leaves the crown including the crown. Also, jumping bullets can cause bullets to deform(become unbalanced) going into the rifling. The rifling will not correct that deformation....garbage in...garbage out.
 
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Many years ago, after doing a lot of .22 RF bench shooting, a friend had a 6PPC built by a notable smith. He did really well with it, but by the time that his first barrel was wearing out he had lost something in average group size. He had a couple of new barrels chambered, with no luck, and even ordered a new rifle, thinking that something had gone wrong with his, with no luck. Finally, I asked him if he wanted me to help him figure it out. I went over everything he was doing and carefully watched him shoot. It turned out that there were about a dozen little things that had added up to the accuracy loss, and once they were attended to, his old groups came back, with his original rifle with a new barrel. The OP has asked the impossible, because we have too little information from him to properly figure anything out. To do this on a forum would require more work than most would want to put in, asking a long list of questions, and assuming that the answers were accurate. IMO this needs some one on one time looking at the whole picture. On the free recoil thing. I know of some very good shooters that do not use that method. IMO it is the most equipment intensive shooting style. Rifle balance, and bags need to be perfect to get the best results. A long time back, after tuning up my rig so that it would shoot free, I taught myself to shoot just as well in contact with the rifle, because with a windage top I was slower free, and in some situations where I wanted to run, using the other style had advantages. This is not as simple as one would think. I discovered that there are some rules for shooting contacting the rifle. It took some trial and error to figure them out.

So true, too many potential causes. A couple of months ago I purchased my first bench rest to go with a new custom 22lr and have been experimenting and learning how to shoot the combo. Not as sensitive as prone with a bipod, but not a cake walk either.
 
When a bullet is in the barrel,it rotates around the center of mass...when the bullet leaves the barrel,it rotates around the center of gravity...HOPEFULLY they're the same. Also,while in the barrel the thrust is at the rear of the bullet...when the bullet leaves the barrel there is a reverse thrust to the nose of the bullet...rapid deceleration called drag. Many things can cause a bullet to be unstable even after it leaves the crown including the crown. Also, jumping bullets can cause bullets to deform(become unbalanced) going into the rifling. The rifling will not correct that deformation....garbage in...garbage out.
We are talking about tune. Does powder charge affect bullet rotation? Does powder charge effect when the bullet leaves the barrel. What about seating depth? What about bullet design and rifle twist. All of these things have to do with tuning. They all affect what the hole looks like. That’s my explanation based on my experience.

What is the basis for you saying the shape of the bullet hole has nothing to do with tune. I think it is bad information, but am open to being proven wrong.
 
The shape of the bullet hole has nothing to do with the tune. All the shape means is whether the bullet went in straight or whether it was unstable for some reason. Example being a bullet fired and then went transsonic
downrange.

The shape of the bullet hole has nothing to do with the tune. All the shape means is whether the bullet went in straight or whether it was unstable for some reason. Example being a bullet fired and the went transsonic downrange.
You and I will disagree. I can clearly tell when my gun is in tune or not by the shape of my bullet holes. A nice cylindrical burn mark along the ID of the hole is good indicator that things are looking up. Oblong in any way..,not so good.
 
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You and I will disagree. I can clearly tell when my gun is in tune or not by the shape of my bullet holes. A nice cylindrical burn mark along the ID of the hole is good indicator that things are looking up. Oblong in any way..,not so good.
@speedygonzalez has/had a series of pictures showing various group shapes but I haven't been able to find an explanation of what they mean. Does anyone know where an explanation is located? He may have talked about bullet hole interpretation too.
 
This is NOT a smartass comment….but you never addressed the original question… I see this all the time, someone says look at the bullet hole it’s not in tune, but no one’s ever written a good explanation. What dont you like about the bullet holes? Not the group formation etc.
Jack Neary has been giving talks about this for years.
 
Back on post #25
one of the best to ever shoot the game
gave some very good advise

when you have 4 in a hole in practice wait through a wind cycle shoot your sighters
make your hold judgement and see if you can stick it in there
force yourself to pull the trigger straight
not many conditions will hold up for 5 shots your probably just missing the change
 
Another good practice drill. shoot 5 shot groups by shooting one shot wait one minute shoot your sighters and then one in the group
nothing more satisfying than a nice teen group shot this way
 
It was Jack Neary. But what does he know? Right?;)

I was thinking of these:

I listened to the podcast and they never got around to discussing these targets.
 
You and I will disagree. I can clearly tell when my gun is in tune or not by the shape of my bullet holes. A nice cylindrical burn mark along the ID of the hole is good indicator that things are looking up. Oblong in any way..,not so good.
so how can the rifle be in tune but not group….
 
ShtrRdy: There's some great tips here from seasoned guys that know how to win and have the bonafides to back it up.

You mentioned that you shoot free recoil. The guns balance point can contribute to on-target vertical shots even with a well tuned up gun when shooting free recoil. The shots will normally drop out the bottom.

I'd suggest checking that as a starting point in your problem solving.

Good shootin' -Al
 
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Rookie here when it comes to “tuning”… but what is the explanation for how a load/rifle combination that is “out of tune” can place 4 shots in essentially one hole?
 
Rookie here when it comes to “tuning”… but what is the explanation for how a load/rifle combination that is “out of tune” can place 4 shots in essentially one hole?
I have a saying that goes……”there are only a few things that will compel a bullet to take the exact same path to the target as the one before, but an untold number of things that will make it go astray”.

Dave Coots pretty much nails it. When a Rifle is in a really good tune, it’s amazing how well everything else works.
 
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