How do I headspace a 30 degree shoulder Swift?

[yotehater]

I'll ride the keyboard...

On the Savage or Remage, with a lot of new brass, I would do the crush fit. The go gauge is now the no go. You don't want new brass to go there.

Another way I work with new brass on rifles chambered too deep or brass below minimum is to neck up one caliber then fit to chamber by partial neck sizing until the bolt just closes. Doesn't allow the web to stretch as the false shoulder firmly establishes headspace.

obviously headspace needs to be already set.


The money saved can buy more brass.

 

[Richard Coody]

From page 155 of vol. 1 of P.O. Ackley's Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders speaking of chambering a standard .30-06 and then of the improved version,
"For the improved cartridge it is necessary to use the 1.940 gauge,..."(previously discussed as the dimension of a standard GO gauge) "...as the "No Go" gauge, and our "Go" gauge must be approximately .004 shorter. There our "Go" gauge will be 1.936." He goes on to cite another example.

In the past, a friend had a custom, from scratch (not a set back) .22-250 AI built. He took it and a case each of two different brands of factory ammo to fire form cases. One brand worked without misfire, the other had many. Because it is common for new brass to be several thousandths shorter than a minimum headspace chamber, and this amount can vary from brand to brand, at the time we thought that the reason for the difference was probably due to differences in the dimensions of the two brands of ammunition.

Having owned a standard Swift, I can tell you that because of their shoulder angle they are more susceptible to case stretch than cases that have larger shoulder angles, and for that reason I learned to pay strict attention to how I set my FL die. When I set up for a measured bump that worked fine for other calibers I quickly got a bright ring near case heads. What worked the best was setting the die to the same dimension as fired brass. The bolt close was fine and there were no more bright rings. This is why I think that in this case setting up off of the longest case for a little feel on the bolt is a good idea, if you do not have an AI GO gauge for your particular caliber. What matters is the end result, and no matter how "by the book" you are, if the end result is not satisfactory, being "correct" is of no consequence.

Some of us keyboard shooters may actually know a thing or two.

so to standard go gauge becomes the new no go. isn't the no go basicly the max saami chamber length. We are talking .004 here right. looks.like to me headspacing.with the go and fireforming should work just fine. sure it would be a bit of a.wildcat but much more dramatic fireforming is.done.every day.

 

[John Russell]

Redding makes an assortment of shell holders of different thicknesses or heights to achieve the same purpose of attacking a shell holder with a Dremel tool.

The Redding shell holders you speak of are only available in "longer", they will not size cases for a short chamber. For that, you will need to lap a shell holder, or grind the bottom of the die. (Or necksize and not have the problem in the first place)

The problem with following Ackley's instructions are this.

1 - Ackley wrote that in 1962, which is 55 years ago! People did not understand where head separations and case stretching came from then... it was assumed that the out rush of gas "dragged" the brass with it. (I know... I was there).

The handloading world has moved forward about 12 light years since then.

2 - If you use the standard "Go" gauge as a no-go, that means that the "no go" can be any "no go" measurement, cuz when you can't close the bolt, that a does NOT give you a measurement that you can count on.... every chamber is different. Whereas, when you are cutting a chamber with a go gauge, you cut it so you get a light resistance fit, and it will be the same as the chamber that you cut last week and last year.

3 - When you got a rifle made up for an Ackley (or any other wildcat), no matter what the headspace was, as long as you could make 3 fired cases, you then sent them to Fred Huntington at RCBS, and they made a complete 3 custom die set for the same price as standard, over the counter dies... (about $8.00).
They lost money on the custom die set, but it was brilliant in killing the competition, and nearly put Lyman out of business (in 1969, Lyman could not pay their bills or buy tool steel, and in 1970, they were sold to Leisure Group, and never recovered).

So, when we follow Ackley's instructions, we are using a crude method and can't understand why so many Ackley chambers give head separations or other problems.

The 2017 way to do it is, when you are having a reamer made, have a "real" go gauge made at the same time (PTG will make you any gauge you want), and then, if the wildcat is a existing chamber that is contemporary, (like a 40° Ackley Swift), check the gauge in your off the shelf dies, and then have the reamers made and everything will come together.
If it is a new wildcat, then have a real "go gauge" and reamer made, make fired cases, and then have custom dies made and avoid all of this sloppy chamber and head separation poo-poo...

 

[fyrewall]

I have never used a Redding shell holder, including the higher or "longer" types.

Redding explains the use of their "longer" shell holders, that are all designated with a "+" - like +.010, +.008, and so on page 18 of their catalog.

Having a Dremel and an aggressive diamond cutting wheel I have attacked the upper surfaces of selected shell holders that are to be only used with certain AI dies. I only use new, never fired brass, and grind down the upper surface of the shell holder to permit closing the bolt on a new brass in a AI chamber. As soon as the new brass can be chambered I quit grinding. To me, lapping infers a smooth gradual precise transition, possibly using valve grinding compound, like in lapping the tool marks out of rifle barrels and lapping in bolt lugs. My shell holders are made of hardened steel and the lapping operations that I am familiar with would be extremely tedious, like the better part of a day.

Getting back to the catalog.

It would appear that when attempting to squash a fresh piece of brass into some chamber, most likely of the AI type, if the brass cartridge is too long for the chamber it be shortened. Redding explains how to do this on page 18 of their catalog. Redding continues with an explanation of successive use of their shell holders - like start with +.010, lower the die so it contacts the shell holder and size, then try fitting the brass to the chamber, if it fits no more messing with the problem is needed, in fact any old shell holder might work.

If some squashing is needed go to the next step which is using a shorter shell holder, like a +.008, and repeat the process (I am now paraphrasing the Redding process as found in their catalog). The shorter +.008 shell holder will further squash (compress?) the brass and hopefully allow easy chambering, if not repeat the process going to a +.006 until the last one is used. If that happens start grinding.

I don't like to grind any AI dies because if I should get another AI type rifle of the same cartridge and my old ground down shell holder does not fit I can toss the old ground down shell holder and grind down a new one that does fit.

Ending all of this with, quote from Redding, "stop at the shell holder that allows the firearms action to be closed freely". It would appear the successive use of shorter shell holders in .002 increments, starting with the longest +.010, will allow more brass squashing allowing cartridges to be quickly and smoothly chambered. (sizing brass for a short chamber)

I like the shape of the AI rounds (happy) with their 40 degree shoulders and straight bodies having almost no taper - they seem to be packed with energy to deliver a lethal strike at very long distances. I guess there are other advantages like less case stretching. My very favorite is the 6mm AI.

I never have had a case separation and with periodic annealing and neck turning I always get over 6 load cycles. I don't neck size because I want to reduce the effort to chamber ammo and I think this cartridge/chamber fit business is overdone. I don't understand why AI ammo production needs to be complicated.

 

[nvtoy]

PM sent.

 

[1911nut]

Good discussion and information.

Building a 30* Swift or a 220 Wilson Arrow or a 220 Swift AI is just complicated enough that I’m leaning toward a 22 Creedmoor for my next build; 6mm Creedmore Lapua brass is available, a 6mm Creedmore FL bushing die necks down the cases. About 4 grains more capacity than the standard Swift. 6 or 6.5mm Creedmoor go and no-go gages to headspace.

 

[ckaberna]

Many viewpoints to get the same results.... All this "head space" discussion where is Guffey?