How do I get low ES/SD (long post w/ pics) update 1/8

[squirrelsnpr]

I just started load development for my new 6.5x47 and was wondering how I get lower and more consistent ES/SD. Here is what I have tried so far and the ES/SD. This is my second time shooting the rifle. The first time out, I started at 39.5 grains of H4350 and worked up to 41.5 at .5 grain increases. Even at 41.5 grains I was not seeing pressure signs, but I don't like to push my rifles, so I settled on trying 39.5, and 41 b/c they shot the best. I then started playing with seating depth and got the following results. All groups were shot at 200 yards from a concrete bench and a bipod. I am not the best shot in the world, but some groups show promise.

Load 1 - Lapua 123s w/ 39.5 grains of H4350 and CCI 400s. OAL = 2.690 (15 thous from the lands)
3 shot Avg. FPS = 2687, ES = 3.58, SD = 2.00

Load 2 - 2.695 (10 thous from lands)
5 shot Avg. FPS = 2652, ES = 76.29, SD = 28.79

Load 3 - Same load as above but OAL = 2.700 (5 thous from lands)
3 shot Avg. FPS = 2669, ES = 47.23, SD = 25.13

Load 4 - Same load as above but OAL = 2.705 (at the lands)
3 shot Avg. FPS = 2682, ES = 19.06, SD = 10.44

Load 5 - Lapua 123s w/ 41 grains of H4350 and CCI 400s. OAL = 2.695 (10 thous from the lands)
3 shot Avg. FPS = 2785, ES = 40.39, SD = 20.00

Load 6 - Same as above but OAL = 2.700 (5 thous from lands)
3 shot Avg. FPS = 2770, ES = 38.14, SD = 20.24

Load 7 - Same as above but OAL = 2.705 (at lands)
3 shot Avg. FPS = 2747, ES = 52.10, SD = 28.68

Here is my loading steps.
1. Tumble
2. Neck size with Redding type S neck sizing die, .289 bushing
3. Prime with RCBS hand priming tool. I generally try to seat till the primer contacts the base of the primer pocket
4. Load with power using RCBS charge master. I make sure grains thrown are exact. If it thows too much I put some back, and add more.
5. Seat with Redding competition seater and measure OAL and adjust to correct OAL if neccessary.

So far I have not had to cut to length. And using Lapua brass fired 2x's.

I do not sort cases, or neck turn, due to a no turn chamber. Rifle is built on Sako 75 action with Pac Nor 8 twist barrel finished at 22.5". Rifle was built by Weaver rifles.

Sorry for the long post, but I am trying to outline everything for you all.
Thanks,
Mitch

 

[cmillard]

Re: How do I get low ES/SD (long post w/ pics)

i would segregate brass for one thing--eliminate one possibility. correct me if i'm wrong but you said that you are seating bullets with a redding seater then measuring and if its off you are adjusting the die and running it into the seater again? if that's the case, you must be measuring from base to tip which is useless. get a sinclair hex comparator or hornady lock n load gage. sort your bullets by bearing length and then set your seater and forget about it. sometimes low es/sd doesn't get the best groups. it says that you have an sd of 3.58 and sd of 2 for three shots. three shots doesn't tell you much--try 10-20 shots and then record your results. what is your chamber--you said it was a no turn neck? you are using a .289 bushing, would like to know how much tension you have.

 

[15Tango]

Re: How do I get low ES/SD (long post w/ pics)

I'll second what Cmillard said about segregating brass - weigh them out into a few groups. If the brass weighs 150 on average and there's an extreme brass weight spread of say 3 grains seperate it into 2 or three groups; however stringent you want to be with it. You'd be surprised how much of a velocity difference you'd get when all things are equal but brass weight's off.

Running Lapua brass I'd say your flash holes should probably be okay but it wouldn't hurt to clean them up and make the pockets and flash holes uniform.

Since you're running a bolt you should be able to get away with neck sizing only. I neck size and only size about halfway down the neck to try and keep the brass centered in the chamber with the part that isn't touched by the die and then it also lowers the overall tension on the neck. From what I've gathered neck tension can be a good deal of what causes deviation, if you can lower the average force it takes to move the bullet out of the chamber you lower the multiplying number in variation, IE, 20% variation of 10 pounds is 2.0 but 20% variation of 5 pounds is only 1.0. This is also the reason Cmillard is wondering what your neck tension is, it's a big factor.

I use a plain old RCBS 5-0-5 scale, I weight it twice by tapping on the pan to get a second weight just to eliminate irregularities in the weight caused by friction in the scale. Since you're running an electronic scale I'm not sure if this will work the same.

Wayne

 

[BHarvey]

Re: How do I get low ES/SD (long post w/ pics)

Looks like 4350 is on the slow side for the 123's. You are not even into enough pressure for it to burn completely and your ES and velocity at the higher charge is showing you that. Try a faster powder, or put some 139's in it and redo.

 

[squirrelsnpr]

Re: How do I get low ES/SD (long post w/ pics)

cmillard-
I have the Hornady 6.5mm insert for the Hornady Lock-n-Load comparator on its way already. I just couldn't wait for it before loading and shooting. A fired case neck is measuring .291, and I am using .289 neck bushing.

15tango-
I am using a primer pocket uniformer after each firing mainly to remove the carbon left by the primer. I have not uniformed flash holes.

One other thing I have noticed is that when resizing and seating bullets, I can feel more/less resistance while operating the press from case to case. What is this an indication of: Inconisitant neck thickness? I don't have neck turning equipment at this time, so should I resize only half the neck like 15tango suggested?

Bharvey-
Would you recommend adding more power or just a heavier bullet?

 

[15Tango]

Re: How do I get low ES/SD (long post w/ pics)

If you're going to try my method toss a nickel on top of your shell holder, run the ram up and set your die. This may not work in a tight chamber but you say you have a no turn neck so it should work. The only thing to consider with this is that you're not full length sizing so your shoulder will really begin to match your chamber and after a few firings on the brass it will most likely become hard to close/open the bolt and it will require a full length size shoulder bump.

Inconsistent force while sizing may be from the lube being inconsistent, are you lubing inside the neck before sizing and using a pad for the outside or spray or what?

This thread should be interesting to see what ya'll have for suggestions, I'm hoping (and I'm sure) I'll learn something.

Wayne

ETA: Oh yeah, isn't the 123 Scenar a fantastic bullet? I love those things.

 

[squirrelsnpr]

Re: How do I get low ES/SD (long post w/ pics)

15tango-
I am using the neck bushings that dont require lube. I dont know what they are exactly called. So, no, I'm not using any lube. And yes, I hear the 123's are great. lets hope I can get them to work.

Since I already resized the brass (the entire neck) I'm going to try sorting them by 1 grain incriments and shooting. I will post results later.

 

[cmillard]

Re: How do I get low ES/SD (long post w/ pics)

got to lube your brass before sizing! regardless of what the manuf of the bushings say. rifles are for long range and you want uniform brass, not using lube can cause malformed brass. now if it was for a pistol using carbide dies, thats no big deal.

 

[squirrelsnpr]

Re: How do I get low ES/SD (long post w/ pics)

this is the kind of things no one tells you till you ask. I'll give that a try next time, brass is already resized. Is One Shot lube good? Its what I was using, and still have it lying around.

 

[BHarvey]

Re: How do I get low ES/SD (long post w/ pics)

139's and try the same charge weights with the 4350.

 

[Preacher]

Re: How do I get low ES/SD (long post w/ pics)

Loose the Hornady "stickem" lube and buy a tin of Imperial Die wax.....

 

[expiper]

Re: How do I get low ES/SD (long post w/ pics)

At 200 yds those bullets should be cuttin one another on a regular basis...with one out sideways onece in a while because of a flag (wind) that you missed....you are never gonna get good results till you step up the pressure...you are running that race car with the choke pulled....Roger

 

[JRinCo]

Re: How do I get low ES/SD (long post w/ pics)

What jumps right out at me, are your primers, you should be using CCI 450 if you can find some, it not try any other small rifle magnum primers.

Personally I've never had much luck with 123 bullets in a 6.5X47 lapua, although lots of other guys have. I really like Berger 130 bullets for that caliber but that's just me.

I'm curious why you haven't gotten more velocity from 41.5 gr of H4350. If things don't improve with mag primers, you need to find a charge weight that's closer to max.

 

[NORZ]

Re: How do I get low ES/SD (long post w/ pics)

Loose the Hornady "stickem" lube and buy a tin of Imperial Die wax.....

I have been contemplating getting those after ruining a custom die plus 100 lapua cases. On the Siclairintl site there are 3 products that seem to be the same thing, or that i dont know the difference and which one to get or just all?

Imperial Die Wax?
Imperial Dry Neck Lube?
Imperial application media?

 

[Mikem]

Re: How do I get low ES/SD (long post w/ pics)

One thing, I couldn't find in all that reading is, you haven't touched the case mouth. With new brass, I will turn off just enough to make the case mouth square with the center line of the case, then chamfer and debure, so all of the rounds in a batch are the same length and finished off the same.
Plus do the other brass prep items mentioned above.
And try switching powder, and get the speed up, that's where the accuracy is, including good ES & SD avg of 10 rounds.
The rifle is new, so you might want to get some rounds through it before you decide your numbers are all off.
And dont forget to clean it per the MFG recommendations.
Mike.

 

[NorCalMikie]

Re: How do I get low ES/SD (long post w/ pics)

And as you make changes "Do one thing at a time"!
Change the seating depth. Keep the powder charge the same.
Change the primer. Keep the powder charge the same, etc.

 

[audredger]

Re: How do I get low ES/SD (long post w/ pics)

And keep accurate records!!! Not just the sucess's but, all your loads!! I keep mine in a log book and on a spreadsheet. The spreadsheet is nice for sorting and seeing trends.
Mike

 

[squirrelsnpr]

Re: How do I get low ES/SD (long post w/ pics)

What kind of velocity should i be expecting with the 120 class, 130 class and 140 class of bullets? I have a 22.5" barrel.

And what is the exact reason for going with the magnum primers?

 

[JRinCo]

Re: How do I get low ES/SD (long post w/ pics)

The velocities that I'm getting from my 24" 1 in 8" twist Krieger are.
I'm using CCI 450 primers with all of these loads

142 Sierra Match King and Reloader 17, average velocity of 2800
140 Berger VLD and Reloader 17, average velocity of 2820
140 Berger VLD and Reloader 15, average velocity of 2750
140 Berger VLD and H 4350, average velocity of 2740

130 Berger VLD and Reloader 17, average velocity of 3000
130 Berger VLD and H 4350 average velocity of 2900

I only tried the 123 grain bullets from my 28" barrel so let's not confuse the issue.

 

[squirrelsnpr]

Here is an update:

I took the advise of weight sorting. I sorting my brass into 3 weight groups, each being a one grain seperation. I also used BR4 primers vs. the 400s. I then loaded 140 A-Maxs instead of the Lapua 123s. I started at 39.5 grains and worked up to 40.5 grains. Each .5 grain jump was a ten shot group at 200 yards. I only have chrono results for the first group b/c the chrono ran out of battery (and of course I didn't have another). So here are the targets:

Load 1 = 39.5 grains of H4350 with 140 A-Max .004 from lands with BR4 primer
Avg FPS = 2661, ES = 32.76, SD = 9.53
-As you can see its a fairly flat vertical grouping, but the horizontal is terrible. The conditions were calm but overcast and about 43 degrees. Was I the reason for the horizontal drifting or is it something I can correct with OAL?

Load 2 = 40 grains of H4350 with 140 A-Max .004 jump to lands with BR4 primer
-No chrono data - dead battery
I was starting to see slight primer flatening, but no hard bolt lift. So I tried the 40.5 load

Load 3 = 40.5 grains of H4350 with 140 A-Max .004 jump with BR4 primer
-No chrono data - dead battery
Again I saw slight primer flatening, but not hard bolt lift. Should I try 41 grains or try this load again with chrono data?


I don't know how helpful this outting to the range will be without the chrono working, but I thought I would post this anyways. It looks like LOAD 1 has potential if I could get the horizontal to come to together, although it is only at 2661 Avg FPS. I also shot these groups in the order as pictured above. I don't know if I should clean between groupings or how long I should wait. I continually checked the barrel after 5 shots and it was not heating up.

I also was considering trying some different poweders. I have BL-C(2) and RL-15. My Hornady reloading manual puts BL-C(2) between H4350 and RL-15. What do you guys think?

Someone mentioned trimming the case length to be uniform. However when I measured the OAL for the cases I was getting around the 1.835-1.845 mark, which is already short (47mm converted to inches is 1.850). Should I uniform the case length anyways?

I also received my shoulder bump die yesterday and haven't had a chance to use it. I measured the case length using the Hornady shoulder comparator (I don't konw what it is exactly called) and all my cases are within .003, and I'm not having trouble closing the bolt, so I guess I'll wait on that unless you think it will improve accuracy.

Thanks in Advance,
Mitch