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Hornady comparator question.

Rubberduckie

Gold $$ Contributor
If I measure coal using a hornady modified case to find my jamb point, how accurate should I expect from a actual fireformed case in a stock remington 700 action? I'm just curious if I'm measuring from base to tip on the modified case vs a 1x or 2x fired case from my chamber? Why isn't there a modified case to measure from shoulder to ogive? New to this game and just trying to be consistent.
 
If I measure coal using a hornady modified case to find my jamb point, how accurate should I expect from a actual fireformed case in a stock remington 700 action? I'm just curious if I'm measuring from base to tip on the modified case vs a 1x or 2x fired case from my chamber? Why isn't there a modified case to measure from shoulder to ogive? New to this game and just trying to be consistent.
Base to ogive is a much more true measurement rather than base to tip. Most tips will be all over the place.
 
The Hornady OAL gauge/Stoney Point tool is designed to provide a cartridge base-to-ogive (CBTO) reference point, nothing more. From the established CBTO reference point at "touching", one can set up a seating depth test, using CBTO measurements from actual loaded rounds, which are very accurate. The seating depth test will then provide direct evidence on a target as to what is the optimal seating depth. Loaded rounds can then be re-produced as needed at that exact seating depth using CBTO measurements. In other words, once the reference point has been established, there is no need to rely further on measurements taken with the OAL gauge.

I typically select 10 bullets at random from a new Lot#. I number the bullet base with a Sharpie, and measure/record bullet OAL and whatever other bullet-specific measurements I feel like taking. The measurement set is labeled and stored for use as long as I am shooting that specific Lot# of bullets. When using the Hornady OAL gauge to establish the "touching" reference point, I measure CBTO and COAL with all 10 bullets, then take the average as my "touching" CBTO and COAL. Of these measurement averages, CBTO is the more useful in terms of reloading; i.e. setting up a seating depth test. I primarily use the COAL values and average more as internal controls to be certain I am not introducing unnecessary error while taking the measurements. For example, when using the OAL gauge correctly, I do not want to see a much greater SD for the COAL measurements than was obtained from the individual bullet OAL measurements. If that happens, it usually means excessive error was introduced while taking the measurements with the OAL gauge because variance in COAL should be directly related to bullet OAL.

I also use the initial average COAL measurement to set up a QuickLoad file. However, I sort bullets by OAL for the purpose of uniform pointing, so the average COAL measurement taken with the 10 bullet measurement set and adjusted for seating depth may not be the true COAL measurement with a specific length group of bullets. Further, bullets tend to "wobble" a bit when taking COAL measurements with the Hornady OAL gauge because the neck is pretty loose. It does not seem to affect CBTO measurements nearly so much. These discrepancies are easily corrected by determining average COAL from a few rounds loaded at a specific seating depth with bullets from a single length group, which can then be used to modify the QL file. Because they have been length-sorted, the bullets within a single length group do not typically exhibit the same OAL variance as the OAL gauge bullet measurement set, which were selected at random to better represent the Lot# of bullets as a whole. Further, pointing changes bullet OAL, so it is better to determine COAL once an optimized load has been established. Attached below as an example is a measurement I took with the Hornady OAL gauge and a new Lot# of bullets a couple days ago.

Measurements obtained using a Hornady OAL gauge can be very useful to establish a CBTO reference point to facilitate the load development process. However, I wouldn't get too far down into the weeds worrying about subtle differences in measurements between the Hornady OAL gauge case and fired cases from the rifle. Because one is simply trying to establish a reference point, these subtle differences don't really matter, because you can take much better measurements from actual loaded rounds that correspond to real-world results on a target. If it really bothers you, you can always make your own case by tapping a fired round to fit into the OAL gauge as was mentioned above. As I recall, the thread pitch necessary to fit the tool is a little oddball, but tools to do it are commercially available.
 

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The Hornady OAL gauge/Stoney Point tool is designed to provide a cartridge base-to-ogive (CBTO) reference point, nothing more. From the established CBTO reference point at "touching", one can set up a seating depth test, using CBTO measurements from actual loaded rounds, which are very accurate. The seating depth test will then provide direct evidence on a target as to what is the optimal seating depth. Loaded rounds can then be re-produced as needed at that exact seating depth using CBTO measurements. In other words, once the reference point has been established, there is no need to rely further on measurements taken with the OAL gauge.

I typically select 10 bullets at random from a new Lot#. I number the bullet base with a Sharpie, and measure/record bullet OAL and whatever other bullet-specific measurements I feel like taking. The measurement set is labeled and stored for use as long as I am shooting that specific Lot# of bullets. When using the Hornady OAL gauge to establish the "touching" reference point, I measure CBTO and COAL with all 10 bullets, then take the average as my "touching" CBTO and COAL. Of these measurement averages, CBTO is the more useful in terms of reloading; i.e. setting up a seating depth test. I primarily use the COAL values and average more as internal controls to be certain I am not introducing unnecessary error while taking the measurements. For example, when using the OAL gauge correctly, I do not want to see a much greater SD for the COAL measurements than was obtained from the individual bullet OAL measurements. If that happens, it usually means excessive error was introduced while taking the measurements with the OAL gauge because variance in COAL should be directly related to bullet OAL.

I also use the initial average COAL measurement to set up a QuickLoad file. However, I sort bullets by OAL for the purpose of uniform pointing, so the average COAL measurement taken with the 10 bullet measurement set and adjusted for seating depth may not be the true COAL measurement with a specific length group of bullets. Further, bullets tend to "wobble" a bit when taking COAL measurements with the Hornady OAL gauge because the neck is pretty loose. It does not seem to affect CBTO measurements nearly so much. These discrepancies are easily corrected by determining average COAL from a few rounds loaded at a specific seating depth with bullets from a single length group, which can then be used to modify the QL file. Because they have been length-sorted, the bullets within a single length group do not typically exhibit the same OAL variance as the OAL gauge bullet measurement set, which were selected at random to better represent the Lot# of bullets as a whole. Further, pointing changes bullet OAL, so it is better to determine COAL once an optimized load has been established. Attached below as an example is a measurement I took with the Hornady OAL gauge and a new Lot# of bullets a couple days ago.

Measurements obtained using a Hornady OAL gauge can be very useful to establish a CBTO reference point to facilitate the load development process. However, I wouldn't get too far down into the weeds worrying about subtle differences in measurements between the Hornady OAL gauge case and fired cases from the rifle. Because one is simply trying to establish a reference point, these subtle differences don't really matter, because you can take much better measurements from actual loaded rounds that correspond to real-world results on a target. If it really bothers you, you can always make your own case by tapping a fired round to fit into the OAL gauge as was mentioned above. As I recall, the thread pitch necessary to fit the tool is a little oddball, but tools to do it are commercially available.
Thank you for the information. That helped my making sense of the measurements I've taken. I appreciate all of your responses.
 
You should know that Hornady's comparator cases are usually 0.006" short (SAAMI specification) as is most commercial ammunition. The base of the comparator case will therefore sit further into the chamber than a fireformed case. It's easy to add 0,006" (or whatever the differential is for your brass and chamber) to the length measured with Hornady's case when when you set your jump or jam.
 
You should know that Hornady's comparator cases are usually 0.006" short (SAAMI specification) as is most commercial ammunition. The base of the comparator case will therefore sit further into the chamber than a fireformed case. It's easy to add 0,006" (or whatever the differential is for your brass and chamber) to the length measured with Hornady's case when when you set your jump or jam.
All true but it doesn't really matter. That tool gives you a number that's only useful(very useful btw) to compare to your loaded round...a comparator. That .006 or whatever means nothing as long as everything is the same each time you take a measurement to compare to the comparator measurement number. I'm sure you know all this but there is still a lot of confusion about what that tool gives us. It's in no way meant to give a precise chamber length because that number means squat. All we need is exactly what the tool gives...a reference to compare against.
 
forIf I measure coal using a hornady modified case to find my jamb point, how accurate should I expect from a actual fireformed case in a stock remington 700 action? I'm just curious if I'm measuring from base to tip on the modified case vs a 1x or 2x fired case from my chamber? Why isn't there a modified case to measure from shoulder to ogive? New to this game and just trying to be consistent.

Another nifty and inexpensive gadget to have is a sinclair chamber length indicator 'bullet'. I use a de-primed, fire formed and 2 tho bumped case to take the measurement. = no confusion on neck trimming lengths.
 
Another nifty and inexpensive gadget to have is a sinclair chamber length indicator 'bullet'. I use a de-primed, fire formed and 2 tho bumped case to take the measurement. = no confusion on neck trimming lengths.
Everyone should have that tool....for safety's sake. It's easy to make too. I've made them from brass and aluminum.
 
If you thread the base of a FULLY fireformed brass to use in your Hornady tool you could come close to doing that but... it would only be a meaningful number in your gun with that tool.

I have done the same thing but using a de-primed fireformed case. I grab a lubed bullet by the point with pliers and gently work it into the neck until have very light tension. Then I body size the case with my standard 2 tho bump and insert a new polished bullet with some thread lock for glue. I gently place it into the chamber and close the bolt. Let it sit overnight and them remove and inspect rifling marks with a 10x loupe. If neck tension was right then should just see small rifling dots. I call this my kiss.
But beforehand I'll take a dozen bullets out of the lot and measure base to ogive with the comparator and use the bullet with the closest avg measurement. And note the spread in my book. I also clean the chamber shoulder well with a shotgun swab.
Just a more ar version of the ole smoking the bullet technique did as a kid !
 
New to this game and just trying to be consistent.
How much effort you put into this might be a function of:

do you plan to shoot with bullets into the lands?
If so, will it be touch, jam or hard jam?
will you always shoot with some jump?

I almost always shoot with some jump. I normally start with a jump of 0.020" unless it is a bullet that has shown it like more jump (like Berger VLD-H. So what I am most interested in is knowing the touch length. I use a different method to determine this COAL.

I take one bullet and determine COAL for touch. I use this bullet in the first case I load and then measure CBTO. As I adjust bullet seating depth in tuning, I use the CBTO number. It doesn't vary nearly as much as COAL does due to bullet length differences.

When I have seating into the lands, I try to avoid seating to "touch". Due to normal variations, some might be touch and some might be short of touch. But if I go for say 0.005" jam, than I know all my bullets are some degree of jam.

Some folks do their load development starting with either jam or hard jam. That way they know that any modifications to bullet seating depth will not increase max pressure from where they started. I haven't done this but have considered it.

I just mention this to provide you different options to consider.
 

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