Hornady 88 ELD
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Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Run the numbers yourself here:
https://bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/
It will give you a better feel for the minimum twist rate necessary at your specific elevation and atmospheric conditions. OAL for the 88s is ~1.240" and the average G7 BC in my hands is ~0.300.
https://bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/
It will give you a better feel for the minimum twist rate necessary at your specific elevation and atmospheric conditions. OAL for the 88s is ~1.240" and the average G7 BC in my hands is ~0.300.
Looks like I need a 7 for full stability.
Apparently the Berger stability calculator isn't reliable. Just ran the numbers for the 80 ELD at the 3550 fps I'm running it in an 8 twist barrel. Says marginal stability. I've run them out to 1100 yards and couldn't ask for better accuracy. 100-1100 yards and it's true as Any bullet I've shot to that range. Guess I'll buy some 88s and see what happens.
I think that the polymer tip has something to do with the stability errors. Some programs allow for the length of the polymer tip. I have a 7.5 twist 22-250 Ackley and have been wondering if the 88 gr ELDM would stabilize also. I shoot 80 gr amazes currently with RL 23 and get good accuracy at 600 yards.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Yep - the polymer tip might be a contributing factor. Also, it's possible to spin bullets at an Sg of around 1.4 (rather than Sg >/= 1.5) and have them perform extremely well, even if you might be giving up a small amount of the intrinsic BC by slightly under-spinning them. With the 88s, I would go with the slowest twist rate you can get away with that will still net you most of the intrinsic BC at your specific elevation/atmospheric conditions. That way, the possibility of jacket failure is reduced, but you still have a setup that performs well.
Ill try the 88s and see what happens. The 80s are fine. I've shot 90 SMKs also and got great groups(3") to 500 yards. Not excellent but good. The 80s are around 2" at 500.
That's exactly what happens. Losing BC isn't the end of the world as long as accuracy is good. I'm pretty happy with 2" groups at 500 yards. 760 yards and groups on open up to 3". It's still a Lazer at those longest ranges. Can't complain. Just would like to see how the 88s do. My opinion is they won't do as well. I'm content with the 80s but like all of us, just have to find out.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
I haven't tried the 80s yet, but I was very, very pleased with the dimensional consistency of the two Lots of 88s I have, the BC was markedly higher than advertised according to my LabRadar data, and the precision was excellent. Unfortunately, my 6.8-twist barrel tears the jackets off at ~2830 fps, so they're on hold until I have another rifle re-barreled in 7-twist. You might be pleasantly surprised at the performance of the 88s. Good luck with them and let us know how they work out for you.
Appreciate it. I will definitely post my results. I really don't think 88s will stabilize in my 8 twist but time will tell. Not giving up much with the 80s tho if the 88s don't run well.
B23
Gold $$ Contributor
Those 75gr ELD-M's have only a slightly lower BC than does the 80 ELD-M and depending on how much faster you could launch those 75's, they very well may be the best choice. A person would have to shoot some then run the numbers to see, but it wouldn't surprise me, especially in a 22-250 or 22-250AI, if those 75gr ELD-M were the hot ticket.
I'm pushing the 80gr ELD-M from my 224 Terminator at 3650 with a 28in 8tw and I may give some of those 75gr ELD-M a go myself.
I'm pushing the 80gr ELD-M from my 224 Terminator at 3650 with a 28in 8tw and I may give some of those 75gr ELD-M a go myself.
B23
Gold $$ Contributor
I'm kind of surprised you're having bullet failure with a 6.8tw at only 2830. Unless something is wrong with your barrel, and I'm not suggesting there is, that doesn't say much for the construction of those Hornady 88's and is not only surprising they're coming apart, but concerning as well.
Have you talked to Hornady about them coming apart on you at such a slow velocity? That's a little less than 300,000 rpm and I'd think they would hold together at that rpm. I'm spinning the 80gr ELD-M almost 330,000rpm from my 28in Krieger 8tw and they aren't coming apart.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
I've blown up Berger 90 VLDs @ ~2850 fps, and the Hornady 88s @ ~2830 fps in this 6.8-twist barrel. 2830 fps in a 6.8-twist barrel translates to ~299.7K RPM, and 2850 fps to ~ 301.8K RPM. In a 7-twist barrel, the RPM values drop to the 291K to 293K range. I don't know if the "straw that broke the camel's back" point lies in between those two ranges, but I do know I've never lost a 90 VLD from a 7.0-twist barrel at the same velocity (2850 fps). Further, I've recently been shooting Sierra 90 SMKs at ~2850 fps and Sierra 95 SMKs at ~2750 fps out of the same out of the 6.8-twist barrel, and not had any jacket issues with either one. So it's hard to say definitively whether the barrel has any issues; however, I'm inclined to doubt it given the lack of any jacket issues with two different Sierra bullets.
There is a lengthy thread on jacket issues with the Hornady ELDM bullets that has led me to suspect contacting them about this issue wouldn't be of much help, but in fairness, I have not tried. I have contacted Berger about the jacket issues with the 90 VLDs on multiple occasions. The take home message was essentially that if I'm going to run them over 300K RPM, all bets are off.
The main consideration with the 95 SMKs and 88 ELDMs is that they have very long bearing surfaces, which require considerable freebore to seat them optimally in a .223 Rem case. The 6.8-twist barrel has 0.220" freebore, which is sufficient, although 0.250" or 0.275" would be even better IMO. My .223 with a 7-twist barrel does not have sufficient freebore to seat either of those bullets optimally. Eventually, I'll replace the 6.8-twist barrel(s) as a 7-twist is sufficient for either one of those bullets. However, the current barrel only has about 1500 rounds through it and I had a second identical barrel chambered when the rifle was built. That is why I've worked up loads with the two Sierra bullets, so that I don't lose the use of that rifle in F-TR competition with the barrels I currently have. If you ever lose a jacket in the middle of a match where you were competing for the win, the confidence level drops to zero pretty quickly.
I generally consider barrels an expendable commodity, but the 6.8-twist barrels are also threaded for a tuner. Collectively, I'd rather not just throw away the cost of half-life barrel and a brand new one if I can find a bullet/load combination that is tolerant of the faster twist rate. Eventually, they'll both be shot out and subsequently replaced with 7-twist barrels having sufficient freebore to load the 88s optimally. Ulitmately, my issues might stem from that specific fast twist barrel I've been using, the velocity I'm pushing these bullets, or might even be a Lot#-specific bullet problem. But it's hard to definitively pinpoint exactly where the problem originates. Nonetheless, as long as I have something else that works, I won't lose the use of the rifle. Eventually, I'd like to shoot those 88s again because except for the jacket failures, I was very pleased with how easily they tuned in and the precision they offered.
That's great to hear. I'm going to start out with 88 ELDM in my 22BR. I've had wonderful results with A MAX in the past and the 147eldm more recently in other rifles. They've been easy to tune and they aren't fussy with seating depth: I've not had to chase the lands all the time to maintain accuracy. I'm hoping that by shooting 88s in the 5R 7 twist at a slower pace and making sure to clean frequently, I'll not have any problems. I'm also not planning to step on it. If 2850 yields great accuracy, I won't bother venturing much higher.
Are there any known nodes for the 88s that frequently work well?
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
In my .223 Rem rifle with a 30" 6.8-twist barrel and 0.220" freebore, the 88s tuned in at ~2830 fps with 24.2 gr Varget/Fed205, COAL = 2.626" (~.015" off the lands). That is the exact setup from which I've had some jacket failures. However with a 7-twist barrel, you might be able to push them harder without issue. The only way to know will be to test them and see what happens. If you try run 88s in the 22BR at such a slow velocity, you will be giving up much of the advantage that cartridge brings to the table. I'd purposely try to find the upper limits in that setup so I would know how hard I could push them, and then go look for the next slower accuracy node that provided a reasonable safety margin to prevent jacket failure.
I wonder if the 30" barrel vs my 24" Barrel is in part of the reason I am not blowing jackets off yet I am running over 3000 fps. Interesting.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Yes - the underlying cause is hard to pinpoint with any certainty. I have lost jackets in this rifle (30" barrel, 6.8-twist, 5R Bartlein) with both the 88 ELDMs and 90 VLDs at ~2830 fps and ~2850 fps, respectively. However, the 90 SMKs at 2850 fps don't seem to have the same issue in the rifle, nor do the 95 SMKs at ~2750 fps. It's possible the barrel could be a contributing factor, but my guess is that it's not the sole factor, otherwise you'd think I would be losing jackets with all the bullets for which I've developed loads. If the barrel itself is some part of the problem, it may be that when I spin on the 2nd 6.8-twist barrel, the problem might go away. I have bore-scoped this barrel multiple times and there are no obvious reasons (defects) why it should be causing this problem, but it's hard to say otherwise. What I can say with certainty is that losing a jacket in a match where you were contending for the win is no fun
. But I liked the way the 88s tuned in, so I'll eventually try them out of an appropriately-chambered 7-twist barrel and see whether that helps to alleviate the problem.
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