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Hollow Point vs. Balistic Tip target bullets???

This has been on my mind for the last couple weeks. Why are so many, nearly all, boat tail target bullets hollow point?

I ask because the last couple months I have been shooting 140gr A-maxs with awesome results. BC is nearly unbeatable, velocity awesome, accuracy awesome and within lots there is nearly any reason to waist time seperating or culling. The best part.... cant beat the price.

Now that I'm done being a Hornady spokesperson. Why arent other manufacturers like Lapua, Berger or Sierra giving it a try? I mean you have to spend a couple hundred more dollar on dies and a ton more time meplat trimming and pointing these hollow point bullets just trying to match what the A-maxs already come out of the box with.

What am I overlooking?
 
There are lots of boat tail bullets that are not hollow point. The entire Nosler Ballistic Tip line is boat tailed including the varmit bullets and large game bullets, and so is the Accubond line. Many of the Seirra BlitzKing bullets, which have the green plastic tip, have a boat tail design. The Sierra GameKing line is a lead tip boat tail design. Swift makes boat tailed plastic tip bullets called the Scirocco II. Barnes makes at least one plastic tip boat tail design - TSX I think.

Perhaps you were thinking target bullets only?
 
As I understand it, the hollow point on the target bullets is a by-product so to speak of the manufacturing process where a pin or punch pushes the formed bullet out of the die. It isn't meant for any expansion purposes, just part of how it is made.
Scott
 
effendude said:
As I understand it, the hollow point on the target bullets is a by-product so to speak of the manufacturing process where a pin or punch pushes the formed bullet out of the die. It isn't meant for any expansion purposes, just part of how it is made.
Scott

I believe this is true. My flat base 30br bullets have the "HOLE" in the top because the pin is there to release the bullet from the pointing die.
 
I understand how the hole got there, if you were to take the "ballistic tip" out of any bullet it would then be a hollow point.

But if slimmer and more uniformed meplat is one of the ultimate goals for a high and consistant BC why are so few of the big name companies offering this in there highest end target bullets.

Example would be: If you took something like the Bergers VLD line of bullets and added a ballistic tip, how much would that raise the BC and its uniformity.

Why are they not doing it though? Along with many of the other companys.
 
The plastic tip does seem to make sense to me for uniformity and better bc. I was told the reason match grade target bullets are of a hollow point design is to help equalize pressure making the bullet more stable. Not sure if this is b.s. or has any truth at all. I have had great results from both but all the rifles I have always seem to have better results punching paper with the hollow design but by a slight margin.
 
effendude said:
As I understand it, the hollow point on the target bullets is a by-product so to speak of the manufacturing process where a pin or punch pushes the formed bullet out of the die. It isn't meant for any expansion purposes, just part of how it is made.
Scott
Close ! For short range accuracy bench rest shooting you don't really need a super high BC bullet , What is more important is precision of manufacture . So to keep the manufacture as simple as possible so no imbalance can result they tend to shy away from any kind of added ballistic tip or complicated design. This means that only two parts make up the bullet , a precision jacket and a precision swaged core nothing else. The most common way to point form that bullet is with a die with an ejection pin. The pin pushes on the end of the jacket to eject the bullet . Commercial bullet makers have other die systems that can make bullets with finer meplats .
Once you start to shoot past short range then the BC of the bullet becomes a bigger factor and the risk of an imbalanced bullet from adding the ballistic tip is outweighed by the better trajectory and wind bucking ability at long range as long as that bullet is very well made and balanced. Some companies stick with the basic Protected Point style ( HP) as the simple easy way to achieve an accurate bullet as new die ejection systems have allowed reduction of meplat size and mepalt trimming and repointing have improved things further. A repointed bullet can get very close to the same BC as a fine ballistic tip but avoid the risk of imbalance.
Then you can bring in terminal ballistics . The ballistic tip was an attempt at producing a high BC bullet that would be accurate at long range but also posses the ability to controled expansion and deform on contact with the target animal in some predictable way. Fine tiped Protected Point (HP) bullets can sometimes go clean through like a FMJ but so can Ballistic tips at times.
I think the modern commercial bullet making processes are very good now compared to previous decades and as a result we are seeing more complicated designs still made with good precision .
In the old days a boat tail spire point with a lead tip was a High BC bullet but the lead tip was prone to damage during feeding from the magazine a ballistic tip was the natural next step to fix that problem also.
 
I am not sure why it is assumed that the A-Max bullets have an unusually high B.C. The 6mm 105 A-Max is bettered by unpointed Sierra 107 Matchkings, Berger 105 VLD and Hybrids. In caliber .30, the A-Max does better, equalling the Berger 210 VLD and edging the 200 Hybrid by a slight margin. Again, the caliber .30 HP bullets are unpointed. When they are pointed, there is a significant ballistic advantage over the A-Max designs.

That is not to say that polymer point designs could not be improved and that there is anything inherently wrong with the concept, but that is what is currently offered. Country's point about simplicity is correct. The fewer components and interfaces in an assembly, the fewer possibilities of manufacturing variance.

I trim and point 180 Hybrids for my F-Open rifle and have managed ~40% X-count in the last two long range tournaments. Although someone may have been, I did not see any shooters running A-Max bullets.

As to the the OP's original question: Sierra had an article back in the early eighties that talked about moving the center of mass (CG) behind the center of form to aid stability. Having a hollow point was how they achieved that. Perhaps Bryan Litz could shed more light on that subject than I can. A-Max designs achieve the same goal by having what amounts to a hollow point with a low density polymer plug in the nose.
 
After a trip to the Sierra factory a buddy and I went into their "outlet" store where you can buy blem bullets. We both purchased a few in different designs. With the naked eye the Matchkings all looked very uniform and the only flaw might be a discolored jacket. The Gamekings (soft point) were not quite finished for the most part in that there was a ring and/or a small piece of lead wire sticking out the end that didn't get knocked off in the tumbler, this was easily fixed by just doing it by hand but as you can imagine it was time consuming. The Blitzkings had numerous flaws in them, anything from the jacket discoloration, the plastic tips being pushed too far in the bullet, the tips were in the correct location but were loose, tips completely missing which left a very large hollow point.

I don't have anything to back it up and it goes back to the simplicity thing mentioned earlier, but I wonder if the cull rate is just to high when making the ballistic tip style bullets that it is just not feasible when using the ultra premium components that some of the higher end companies use to make their bullets.
Jason
 
One of the things that bugged me about the 20 cal. Sierra BlitzKing bullets, both 32 & 39 gr. was all the green plastic tips I would find in a factory sealed box (when I opened them) that had seperated from the bullets, now hollow points. As many as 8 to 10 out of a box of 100. Did not do much to instill confidence in their performance.
 
Frank, I use a lot of Sierra Blitzking bullets, numbering at least several thousand to this point, and not once have I had a tip missing. One bullet was defective in it looked like a prune just below the tip, but that has been it.

I also use quite a few of the Nosler Ballistic Tips in .224 and .277 and none of those tips have ever been missing either.

Never got any of the Hornaday tipped bullets to shoot exceptionally well, so have not used many of them, and if I recall only one tip was ever missing from any of them.

Must have been some bad luck with the ones you bought Frank.

Overall, every gun I've chased the one hole group with, hollow point match bullets always shot better than any tipped bullet. I tried the 52 grain A-max one time and while they shot good, the hollow point match bullets shot better. Just an observation on my part and not trying to be argumentative.
 
Otter: Yes, it may have been a bad batch. As I remember they were all the same lot number, and the fact that they were the very small 20 cal. may have had something to do with it. Difficult to even hold on to them when seating.

Never had the problem with any others like the 70 gr. Sierra 6mm BlitzKing or the 22 cal. Hornady V-Max in 50 & 55 gr., and I've used a very high number of those.

Still, for accuracy I've never seen any of the serious benchrest competitors using them in competition. It's always flatbase or boatail hollowpoints.

I too have compared them side-by-side & as good as some of them are, the match hollowpoints (like Sierra MatchKings & Bergers) always come out the winner.
 
In the second edition of his book "Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooters", Bryan Litz says with regards to plastic tipped bullets that the drag reduction of plastic tipped bullets is real, but is smaller than commonly thought, yielding drag about equivalent to a meplat that has been pointed to 0.040. The plastic tipped bullets are easier to keep uniform because the bullet itself is not pointed down to such a small diameter. The disadvantage lies in that another component is added, as is another step in the bullet making process. In manufacturing processes where maintaining consistency is vital, fewer pieces and fewer steps are always better. Having spent more years than I care to remember involved with mechanical design and manufacturing those designs, I can vouch for that. In most manufacturing endeavors, the KISS aproach is the best.
 
Rock Knocker,

Most of the other answers on this thread so far have touched on several of the issues you're asking about, and most have been to some degree, correct. The real reason for the hollow point design, is as has been alluded to, the manufacturing process. Prior to the intoduction of the hollow point match bullet designs, most match bullets were of FMJ configuration. Problem here is that it's considerably harder to make an accurate FMJ than it is a hollow point. To begin with, FMJs require massively thicker jackets, due to the extensive forming that takes place in order to create the ogive. Thicker jackets are harder to draw concentrically, providing one source for accuracy loss before the bullet is even formed. If you look at how the jacket is formed, you'll see the problem; essentailly, you're putting a point (the meplat) and ogive on the flat base of a drawn jacket. Remanants of this radius can often be seen as a "frosted" section on the ogive of formed FMJs. With a hollow point design, you can begin with a thinner jacket, which is in turn easier to draw concentrically, making for a more inherently accurate finished bullet. The forming involved here simply entails putting the ogive on the jacket once the core is in place, creating much less stress on the jacket itself. The meplat size is, as mentioned, limited by the size of the knock out rod that punches the formed bullet back out of the die. Most of todays modern hollow point designs run somewhere around a .045"-.060" meplat, because that's about the limit that currrent metallurgy allows for a knock out rod that is both tough enough and hard enough (not the same thing) to consistentily push the formed bullet back up into the fingers so it can be moved to the next station. A larger knock out rod makes for a stronger punch, but a larger meplat on the finished product. A smaller rod makes for a smaller meplat, but too many wrecks where the rod fails to punch the bullet out, and the press tries to seat another bullet on top of the first. Expensive and time consuming mess to straighten out, so it's a balance between the two extremes. right now, that's just where the technology stands.

The idea of a tipped bullet, be it polymer or some other material introduces yet another component into the mix, and this degrades accuracy. basic rule here; the more complex the manufacture of a bullet, or the more component parts a bullet has, the more you're going to reduce accuracy in most cases. Essentially, you're giving Murphy another opportunity to interject himself, which I assure you, he will. Simple is good where bullet design is concerned, and the simpler, the better. Tipped bullet do have some undeniable applications, primarily (IMO) in varminting applications. The addition of a polymer or resin tip is basically nothing more than a windshield. It gives a much more aerodynamic profile to a bullet that uses a massive hollow point. That same exact bullet, without that tip, would have the BC of a Pringle's potato chip, and fly about as well. With the tip in place, it's now much more streamlined, delivers much higher BC and is still about as explosive as C4 on impact. Whatever slight degradation in accuracy may exist, is more than offset by these advantages. In short, they have their place, but they do have some drawbacks that keep them from being ideal competitive bullets in most venues. I shoot Service Rifle. The notion of finding little green polymer tips floating around in my trigger mechanism after a string is the sort of stuff nightmares are made of, and yes, I've heard of it happening to others. In a bolt gun, chasing game, no problem at all. As I said, everything has its place, and it that place, it's the ideal solution.
 
Thank you, Kevin !! that explains why Lapua dropped my (dearly missed) 170 gr rebated BT FMJ . Cost of manufacturing !!

Not to steal the thread ... is there any truth to the myth that the polishing particles left in the open tips WILL/WILL NOT hurt accuracy ?
 
Whoa, not so fast Will! we still make the rebated FMJ designs, at least in the 185 grain format. It's called the D46 series, and is still available in the US market. You probably just don't see them as often due to the prevalance of the Hollow Points (like our Scenars) in the market these days. But yes, we do still make it.

As to the polishing media, no, it really doesn't hurt anything that I've ever seen in testing. The tumbling process itself does, at least a little. The bullet is as accurate as it's ever going to be when it comes out of the sizing die. Any further processing tends to reduce accuracy to a greater or lesser degree. Bear in mind, the QC bullets that I shot for daily testing were straight off the machines, and had not been tumbled at all.

These days, most makers have found ways around the media in the noses problem, anyway. Sierra uses a grade of nut shell that's too large to fit into the hollow point for their rifle bullets, and a much smaller grade for the large pistol hollow points. It goes in, it comes right back out. In the rifle bullets, it never makes it in in the first place. Berger has an entirely different process that uses no media like this at all, thus completely eliminating the problem of media contamination altogether. I guess the thing to bear in mind is that even if there is a small amount of media that worked its way into the nose, A) it's very light (almost no mass), and B), is now located very close to the centerline of the bullet, where it can do minimal damage. Something closer to the outer walls would have a much greater effect on the CG, especially if it were of greater mass. In short, it's not much to worry about.
 

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