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Hole in primer after firing (UPDATE 9/18/11)

fguffey said:
"except of course for Ed"

Bozo699, Who is Ed?

F. Guffey
Well I will tell you F.G he is a fella on here that makes no sense what so ever in his posts just like you, he likes to argue just like you appear to like it also. I remember a thread one time he was involved in about case lubing which I might add is a common practice, he just couldn't SHUT UP ABOUT IT!!! page upon page of his colorful illustrations and quotes from his gun Bibles, that's all you lack is the pictures and you could be his clone, here is a typical post of his and if you follow the entire thread on lubing cases you will see what I mean,...or not.


Big Stuff -- 6.5mm, 7mm, 30 Cal and up / experience with frozen bolts...from WAAAAYYYY TOO MUCH VARGET!!
« on: 10:25 AM, 06/03/11 »
Quote from: bozo699 on 10:36 PM, 06/02/11

I'll give you credit Ed, you never give up with the 1929 shooting bible and your personal vendetta against lubing cases for fire forming, I remember this thread the most, 11 pages and 4416 hits and half of them out of the 1929 gun bible, and other wonderful illustrations ::)
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php/topic,3754346.0.html

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php/topic,3760779.15.html

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php/topic,3755749.15.html

ttp://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php/topic,3754472.0.html
Wayne.

Ed is a smart fella and has a lot of knowledge of firearms as I suspect you do as well but just can't seem to spit it out in a legible and understandable way, read some of your posts and then read some of his I think you will get the idea. I don't dislike you and don't want to fight with you, but it is very irritating when were trying to help someone and all you want to do is argue. You have the rights to your beliefs and a right to post them but don't try to cram them down unwanted throats.
Wayne.
 
Bozo699, THAT ED! He had a long list of post deleted, he was having too much fun making himself look good at the expense of a poster that had asked a question, others glad he was not insulting them piled on, and those are the ones I would not want with me when the going gets tough.

I realize after so many responses list head space being the culprit based on a flawed cartoon someone on the outside runs the risk of none acceptance by posting an opposing opinion. I do not make this 'about me' if you have a suggestion as to the cause of a perfectly punched round hole in a primer take the time and respond.

http://www.odcmp.org/1101/can.pdf

F. Guffey

and they removed my post, something about nothing on the home page prepared me for dealing with adults acting like children, and they removed a couple of post posted by those that were glad he was not insulting them.
 
"UPDATE(9/18/11): Readjusted the headspace (tightened). Fired 13 rounds (factory ammo, Norma brand, 6mm Norma BR).
11 rounds have severe cratering on the primer, 2 rounds have a pierced primer"

If I was not the focal point attention could have been focused on the quote above "severe cratering", after "severe cratering" could be the cause "pierced primers", back to hot high pressure metal cutting gas, cratering is caused by the the loss of the bolt faces ability to support the primer around the firing pin because of gas cutting or bad bolt design.

Again, the firing pin must be supported by the spring, the firing pin must not be allowed to be unseated by pressure in the case. We all know the pressure inside the case could be 60,000 psi, as butchlambert said the spring pressure was changed to 22 from 16, to most that is a conflict, 22 psi against 60,000 but remember is is a .7854 thing.

F. Guffey

Again, gas cutting through the primer cuts the bolt face around the firing pin (and firing pin). Unseating primers causes bolt face gas cutting, and again, not sure how this turns into something about me, but, on the outside chance there are a few that read this information and are fair and objective, I will make the effort.

F. Guffey
 
It's been my experience with the "my" 6BR rigs that if the bullets were "jumped" to the lands, pressure will start showing. That "same" load, with the bullet "jammed" into the lands won't show any pressure signs and you can even boost the powder charge before you start showing and pressure signs.
Short cases (in my experience) will allow the primer to be pushed out of the pockets and be pierced by the firing pin.
My fireformed cases don't show that problem.
That's why I'am thinking "ammo" and not mechanical problems (weak firing pin spring). Still waiting on the answer to the problem. ;)
IMHO, "you" are not the focal point. The problem and the final outcome is.
 
NorCalMikie said:
It's been my experience with the "my" 6BR rigs that if the bullets were "jumped" to the lands, pressure will start showing. That "same" load, with the bullet "jammed" into the lands won't show any pressure signs and you can even boost the powder charge before you start showing and pressure signs.
Short cases (in my experience) will allow the primer to be pushed out of the pockets and be pierced by the firing pin.
My fireformed cases don't show that problem.
That's why I'am thinking "ammo" and not mechanical problems (weak firing pin spring). Still waiting on the answer to the problem. ;)
IMHO, "you" are not the focal point. The problem and the final outcome is.
Absolutely spot on Mike ;)
 
fguffey said:
"UPDATE(9/18/11): Readjusted the headspace (tightened). Fired 13 rounds (factory ammo, Norma brand, 6mm Norma BR).
11 rounds have severe cratering on the primer, 2 rounds have a pierced primer"

If I was not the focal point attention could have been focused on the quote above "severe cratering", after "severe cratering" could be the cause "pierced primers", back to hot high pressure metal cutting gas, cratering is caused by the the loss of the bolt faces ability to support the primer around the firing pin because of gas cutting or bad bolt design.

Again, the firing pin must be supported by the spring, the firing pin must not be allowed to be unseated by pressure in the case. We all know the pressure inside the case could be 60,000 psi, as butchlambert said the spring pressure was changed to 22 from 16, to most that is a conflict, 22 psi against 60,000 but remember is is a .7854 thing.

F. Guffey

Again, gas cutting through the primer cuts the bolt face around the firing pin (and firing pin). Unseating primers causes bolt face gas cutting, and again, not sure how this turns into something about me, but, on the outside chance there are a few that read this information and are fair and objective, I will make the effort.

F. Guffey
If you know for sure what the op's problem is please enlighten us by all means, that's all we want is to give him the correct answer to his problem.
Wayne
 
Hole in primer after firing (UPDATE 9/18/11)

Today is 9/25/11, I did not participate in the first round of problem solving, had I been involved my advise would have been 'STOP SHOOTING THE RIFLE!' The problem existed before I got involved, the problem, if it started with a week spring has progressed to replacing the bolt if the hole in the bolt face has been cut by gas. Again the bolt face supports the primer, either way, according to the cartoon, or according to me, the primer is crushed by the firing pin then the primer conforms to the shape of the protruding pin, Izrua claims the primers on his new factory ammo had craters and punched primers, again the primer conforms to the face of the bolt, if the bolt is flat, the primer after conforming is flat, if the primer has a crater, the primer conformed to the face of the a bolt that has a large firing pin hole. Primers conformed to a bolt face that has a firing pin hole that is gas cut, worn out or was never the correct size in the beginning is not something that a bench 'rester' of 6mmBR can change because they say it does not exist, someone could gave have given, Izrua, some bad advise as to the shape of the firing pin and he took them serious.

Back to primer cratering, Bench 'resters', reloaders, fire formers and those that claim the BR6mm as their domain, the 6mmBR does not have an exemption, I could ask what factor changes when the bullet is backed off .030 thousands from .000 of the lands but is has already been claimed pressure reduces when the bullet is against the lands as opposed to backing it off, and it is claimed more powder can be added if the bullet is moved forward against the lands and at the same time pressure is reduced, so I will not ask what factor is effected.

I am not a fire former, I determine the length of the chamber first then form cases that fit, I do not have enough ambition to claim bench rest shooter status, I do claim I determine the length of the chamber first then form. I form first then fire, after firing I get once fired cases.

I could be wrong, bench rest chambers and bench rest shooters could have exemption, the OP needs to change his statement:

"11 rounds have severe cratering on the primer, 2 rounds have a pierced primer"

I am not a bench rester or a 6mmBR expert, so I will say "STOP SHOOTING THE RIFLE!" take it to a good smith, back away from the computer....unless the answer was prearranged, to be beyond suspicion pretend some of the advise given is helpful rather than insist the outcome is already determined.

F. Guffey


MSbP,
 
fguffey said:
Hole in primer after firing (UPDATE 9/18/11)

Today is 9/25/11, I did not participate in the first round of problem solving, had I been involved my advise would have been 'STOP SHOOTING THE RIFLE!' The problem existed before I got involved, the problem, if it started with a week spring has progressed to replacing the bolt if the hole in the bolt face has been cut by gas. Again the bolt face supports the primer, either way, according to the cartoon, or according to me, the primer is crushed by the firing pin then the primer conforms to the shape of the protruding pin, Izrua claims the primers on his new factory ammo had craters and punched primers, again the primer conforms to the face of the bolt, if the bolt is flat, the primer after conforming is flat, if the primer has a crater, the primer conformed to the face of the a bolt that has a large firing pin hole. Primers conformed to a bolt face that has a firing pin hole that is gas cut, worn out or was never the correct size in the beginning is not something that a bench 'rester' of 6mmBR can change because they say it does not exist, someone could gave have given, Izrua, some bad advise as to the shape of the firing pin and he took them serious.

Back to primer cratering, Bench 'resters', reloaders, fire formers and those that claim the BR6mm as their domain, the 6mmBR does not have an exemption, I could ask what factor changes when the bullet is backed off .030 thousands from .000 of the lands but is has already been claimed pressure reduces when the bullet is against the lands as opposed to backing it off, and it is claimed more powder can be added if the bullet is moved forward against the lands and at the same time pressure is reduced, so I will not ask what factor is effected.

I am not a fire former, I determine the length of the chamber first then form cases that fit, I do not have enough ambition to claim bench rest shooter status, I do claim I determine the length of the chamber first then form. I form first then fire, after firing I get once fired cases.

I could be wrong, bench rest chambers and bench rest shooters could have exemption, the OP needs to change his statement:

"11 rounds have severe cratering on the primer, 2 rounds have a pierced primer"

I am not a bench rester or a 6mmBR expert, so I will say "STOP SHOOTING THE RIFLE!" take it to a good smith, back away from the computer....unless the answer was prearranged, to be beyond suspicion pretend some of the advise given is helpful rather than insist the outcome is already determined.

F. Guffey


MSbP,
Really?....
Could you please tell me how you accomplish this,...a hydrolic forming die perhaps? If you were forming 6 dasher or 6brx brass from the original 6br brass, or 6mm AI from standard 6mm remington brass or from 7X57 Mauser brass how is this accomplished without fireforming to the chamber?... inquiring minds needs to know, Please explain. You may have already explained it but my Dyslexia seems to have returned and I am having trouble deciphering certain posts.
I try will to understand post next too ;)
Wayne.
 
Mr: Guffey Sir: Where's the "cartoon" you keep refering to?
And, no where did anybody mention being a "benchrest shooter". And why would you think that would make any difference in the problem at hand? If the factory ammo fits loose in the chamber, it's loose, period!
You say you set your headspace to .000 "before" you fire form? What if you don't have that option as in a Savage, set to factory SAAMI specs, shooting factory loaded ammo. Is there a chance, just maybe, that the ammo could be a little shorter than the factory chamber and be in need of fireforming?
And as it stands now, no one has solved any problems. That's why we're still here. ;)
And no one has said anything about being an "expert" on the 6BR. I just related "my " experience with "my" 6BRs. If it has never happened to you, then you need to see it for yourself.
 
Wrong standard, a case that fits loose in the chamber presents a different set of problems depending on the receiver design, The head of the case is going to imprint on the bolt face, if the firing pin hole is gas cut, no matter how the case fits the chamber the primer is going to form to the firming pin. The OP seems to know what a crater looks like, something like a dent with a high wall around it as seen in pictures from the moon and mars, there is no way to get a crater around the center dent except with a bad firing pin hole.

It seems to me it is very important that you be correct, and that is OK with me, I am not that vain, all you have to do is get the OP to change the description regarding the appearance of a crater and punched hole on and in the primer.

F. Guffey
 

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