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Holding off Vs Dialing in.

Turbulent Turtle

F-TR competitor
I’m usually a hold-off kind of guy, but at this past weekend’s TSRA LR Championship, I did something different.

During the first match, I elected to hold off as I usually (always) do and found myself holding between the edge of the black and the edge of the target for all the shots. I had some elevation issues some, of which I attribute to not holding the rifle perfectly level across the target. I collected a few 9s just below the 10-ring. I also had a difficult time gauging the exact aiming point on the target because the area between black and target edge is mainly featureless. I dropped eight shots in the 9-ring for a 192.

At the next string, I elected to send my first sighter aiming right at the X in the X-ring. The result was a 6 at 9 o’clock, perfect waterline. The impact was just outside the black and that signaled to me that the conditions had not changed even 2 hours later. In fact, I gauged the conditions to be the same throughout the day, with build-ups and let-offs but always from the same direction.

So, at that point I hesitated for several seconds and decided I did not want to hold at the long end of a reticle, aiming into the featureless area between black and edge. So, I dialed in 2 full minutes right and show a second sighter. I got a 10, I shot another one and then a third one and decided I needed to pay attention to one specific flag and aimed my spotting scope at that flag. My preferred condition was the flag straight out, aiming between 2 lines or 3 lines right. If the flag drooped a little, I would hold 1 or 2 lines. If the flag went up, I would hold because I could not gauge the amount needed when the flag goes up.

My first shot for record was an 8 at 2 o’clock. To say that I was surprised would be an understatement. Whiskey, Tango and Foxtrot were words that danced in my head. I could see no reason for that shot. So, I took aim at the exact same spot and shot again. An X came back up. I dropped 3 more points for the rest of the string and ended with a 195-6X. The three 9s were all due to wind and all very close to the 10-ring. No more elevation issues after that starting 8.

The third string was more of the same as the others and by this time I was a believer in the 2MOA dialed in and just played between 1-3 lines right. I didn’t do quite as well as the second string and got a 193-something, but again, no elevation issues due to trying to hold the waterline 2 feet from the X-ring. It’s very doable but your rifle must be perfectly level.

At this point, I am a believer in actually dialing in a correction for a string, but as I said, it was critical to me that the conditions held steady at least with rspect to the direction of the wind.
 
Well Denys, I had a similar situation... My first 2 sighters on my FIRST match went all the way to the 7 ring. I shot again to make sure and I hit the marker. So I dialed in 1.5 mins of windage and was holding on the #8 itself at the 3 o'clock position. That went on for 2 matches... The last match, my sighters went right on the #8 at 9 o'clock EVEN THOUGH I was holding the way I did on the previous 2 matches. So I dialed in AN ADDITIONAL 1.5 m.o.a. and now carried a FULL 3 MOA and I still held on the #8 at 3 o'clock! I missed 2 wind calls JUST OUTSIDE the 10 ring at 3 o'clock! My little 105gr Dasher was no match for conditions of the last match! I shot a 192-4X!! Had I not put in the windage, I literally would have been using the #10 target for shooting on MY #9 target!
 
Thanks for your observations, Denys. What about the idea of using the mil-dots, and deciding which mil-dot will be closest to the X, and hold that mil-dot, using corrections as needed, like you said, 1-2 rings out, etc. ?
Jim
 
Regarding using the reticle to hold off... a couple things to be aware of. First, on second focal plane scopes (i.e. most target scopes) the reticle subtension changes with the magnification. I've seen more than one person who changed power and then wondered why their wind 'hold' changed so much... ::) Second, on some of the fancier 'hash' reticles I've heard (and done it myself) of folks miscounting which hash mark they're using when getting back on target. Various commentary followed... >:(

I generally don't use pure hold offs once I start having to hold outside maybe the 8 ring. I'll dial on a base windage at the start of the string that should put me somewhere inside the 9 ring or better for my first sighter (in high winds, that may be optimistic) and dial in further with my second sighter and first record shot. If conditions change I'll dial n hold accordingly.
 
Jim, I think any method that you can use to help you hold off properly would work.

My NXS scope has an NP2DD reticle and as such the reticle is very plain; just the way I like it. It was heavily overcast this weekend, so I powered up the illuminated reticle to aid my aging eyes. (sigh.)

What I find with MilDot reticles, is that, for me, they are too busy and thick for such hold offs.

Also, it would probably slow me down and that could cause issues. Let me explain.

I constantly monitored that one flag in the spotting scope. I left of the middle of the firing line and so whatever the flag indicated would be at my target about 3 seconds later. So when I decided to shoot, I had to get the shot off within 3 seconds of my observation. I had a clear picture in my mind of where on the target I wanted to place the dot and finding the 10, 9 or 8 ring is very easy. After firing and follow through, I would jump back to the scope to see what the flag was doing then, to get an idea if there was a change.

One must remember that the bullet takes at least one second to the to the place where it would be affected by the conditions I was monitoring.
 
At Oak Ridge this past weekend I held off till I got into or past the 8 ring. Then I could not reliably hold a good aiming point. I got a 10 by holding the edge of the blackon the 8. Took 2 1/2 minutes off when the wind changed and stayed. Much better results for me the next few shots. I want to know what the value is and sometimes holding off has hindered me from learning though...

I like being able to equate a condition i see on the flags to a number on the dial!
 
Being more of a hunter than a target shooter im a firm believer of direct dialing windage and elevation for a center hold. I reserve holding over for rapid wind changes i dont have time to plot and follow up shots.
 
Before deciding what strategy to apply at the start of a match it is best to decide if the conditions you see are going to hold? In particular is the wind likely to switch directions. If you think it may change direction then IMO you are best served by not touching your windage knob. Hold off and chase the spotter/changes back and forth across the target. I personally have little problem with holding off the target frame if need be. Of course shooting F-Open is an advantage in this regard.
Larry Bartholome
 
Lbart said:
Before deciding what strategy to apply at the start of a match it is best to decide if the conditions you see are going to hold? In particular is the wind likely to switch directions. If you think it may change direction then IMO you are best served by not touching your windage knob. Hold off and chase the spotter/changes back and forth across the target. I personally have little problem with holding off the target frame if need be. Of course shooting F-Open is an advantage in this regard.
Larry Bartholome

Is this because the chance of getting lost with what is dialled on is too high?
 
6BRin NZ,
Yes! I believe in the KISS principle :) If something could happen while shooting, it has happened to me! The fewer things I have to think or worry about the better. If the wind is switching quickly I am going to be shooting while it is switching in most cases. I try to stay with the changes as they are occurring rather than read the changes after they happen. It may not be the best tactic for some but it seems to work pretty well for me. Heck I forget where I shot the last shot if anything happens to distract me. As a Grand Senior it is not going to get any better :)
Larry
 
I too believe in KISS Larry...click for every single adjustment. :) If I forget how many minutes of wind are on the rifle...just look at the knob. After a few months, clicking becomes so intuitive there is no need to look at windage knob...just dial the clicks and mentally keep track of the total windage. I've seen so many examples of both being successfully done, I don't think there is any real debate here: do what you feel is right. :-)
 
Hi Dave, it's been a little while.

The windage knob is that contraption on the right side of a riflescope that old(ish) people usually turn the wrong way, turning what was supposed to be 10 into an 8, thus teaching these people to not play with windage knobs in the middle of a string.

When I was shooting Palma and highpower, I played with the windage knob on my Parker Hale rear sight almost every shot, but that was two to a mound and slow shooting. When I'm on a roll in F-class and I'm riding a condition, the last thing I want to do if mess with the windage knob. I leave my NXS at 42X all the time and place the dot right where I want on the target with far more ease and precision than I would fiddling with knobs.

The only time I would really play with windage was in a condition like last Saturday where the wind was always from one direction and was at least as strong as about 12MPH. Putting in 2 MOA right got me close to the X and every shoot after that was from center to almost 4 lines right; I never had to aim to the left of the X, always somewhere to the right.

The adjustment was the same for the last match and same results. And yes, I did remember to remove the 2 MOA right from the scope after the match.
 
Well.... ;) I am officially old then. I twisted the windage knob the wrong way at Oak Ridge last weekend... Paid for it dearly. 2 MOA wrong way hurts bad.
 
broncman said:
Well.... ;) I am officially old then. I twisted the windage knob the wrong way at Oak Ridge last weekend... Paid for it dearly. 2 MOA wrong way hurts bad.

A old friend of mine pulled a car out of gear when he was a child but it didn't prevent him from driving when he was a adult. Each and every method is an arsenal at your disposal. Most people make the most of what they have control of and that comes with a few lumps sometimes.
 
broncman said:
Well.... ;) I am officially old then. I twisted the windage knob the wrong way at Oak Ridge last weekend... Paid for it dearly. 2 MOA wrong way hurts bad.

Well, i aint that old (42) and i did the same thing you just did.......I did it last month at the Berger Nationals of all places to do it.....I dialed the wrong way and shot a 6 then followed up with an 8 trying to get back to the 10/X ring in fast building winds......I was sick when the target came up a 6.......I knew exactly what i did, still kicking myself for doing that in a big match but it happens i guess....... :-\ >:(
 
We get an 8 minute unlimited sighter period to start the day and the rest of the day we shoot what we have. I learned the hard way that once it is sighted the only time I touch those knobs are between relays. Way too easy to make a mistake cranking those knobs.

We shoot stuff that breaks...clays, poker chips, thumb tacks, asprin, etc and one of the guys who normally does pretty well told me he never sights in to the crosshairs but sets the item in one of the 4 corners of the crosshairs and is essentially holding off all day. I told him that was fine if you had crosshairs ;D Hard to do with just a dot.
 
I will still crank nobs for anything past the 9 ring or if conditions are really steady. I want to know that what I see in the flags and mirage are say 2 1/2 minutes instead of "hold the 8ring". I made some bad calls due to missed wind and dropped a few points. But by maintaing my focus on a tight of hold as possible on the X Ring, my,x count went up. The missed windcalls will get better with more experience....

Thats my method for right now.
 

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