dmoran
Donovan Moran
Well then your 15" indifference between the two is irrelevant (fubar)..... lol
Highest BC for up to 109 gr bullet
- Thread starter SteveOak
- Start date
MarkS
Silver $$ Contributor
Thanks to DanSavage for actually answering the question.
Honorable mention to MarkS. You forgot to mention who makes the bullets you listed.
Also, please tell me who makes these horrifically inaccurate high BC bullets so that I can avoid them.[/QUOT
Berger's
MarkS
Silver $$ Contributor
In my post I said that I am willing give up "slight differences in accuracy". Not sure how you came to "not accurate."
If one is chasing the ultimate accuracy with a 6 BR they're not going to be shooting 100 gr + bullets anyway.
The importance of .2" of group depends on what you shoot.
I will shoot these out to 385 meters, standing! 3 or 4 inches less wind deflection at 385 meters means a whole lot more than a .2" improvement in group.
The 6BR does not reach it's ultimate accuracy, until you put something like a Berger 105 gr VLD in and shoot it at long range. I have shot 3 IBS 600yds benchrest records shooting the older Berger 105gr VLD's ( same bullet as the Berger Hunting bullets) one being light gun group 0.749" in 2007'.
At 385m you may want to look at the Berger 95gr or 87gr VLD, you can get more speed to make up for the lower BC. I can get 200 f/s faster with the 87gr, than the 105gr. Any of the Bergers will give the BC you will need at 385m. you want see the difference until you out to 600 to 1000yds.
Mark Schronce
SteveOak
Gold $$ Contributor
Interesting thought. What velocities can you get with the Berger 105, 95 and 87?
MarkS
Silver $$ Contributor
Steve,
I get 2900 f/s with the 105 and 108 Berger with RL15 powder. 3025 f/s with 95's and RL15 . 3100 with 87 with Varget. These loads are warm in my gun, but I have no problems with them. Another great bullet is the 90gr BT Berger for mid range. I have shot the 90's to 1000yds with good results in a 10 tw 6mmAI.
Mark
In zero wind, I would agree. But where I shoot, we have wind, lots of it, and it's devilishly shifty as well. "Dead Calm" is considered a foreign language.
Therefore, raw accuracy (precision actually) does not tell the whole story. Muzzle velocity and BC have a lot to do with having success at 600 yards in nasty wind conditions.
For example, I've tested 1068 carefully recorded rounds in my current 6mm BR gun, so I have a good idea of what works and what doesn't. The most accurate no-wind bullet/powder combination that I've tested so far is the Berger VLD 95gr with Vihtavuori N-140. However, my competition load is Berger VLDH 105gr with IMR 4895.
The 105s shoot slightly larger groups and have a worse Mean Radius as well. By the way, not everyone calculates Mean Radius for their test groups, but I think it's an important factor, especially when shooting for score.
So why use the less precise 105s? Here is one example using carefully recorded data from my numerous test sessions: Even though the 105gr load is not as precise as the best one for 95gr bullets, if I make a wind call error of 2 mph (12mph vs 10mph, easy for me to do) the less precise 105gr load will have a computed advantage at 600 yards of 0.864" after taking into account both the better performance and the basic accuracy disadvantage of the 105gr load. That's nearly 7/8", enough to make the difference between winning and coming in mid-pack.
Doing the math for my .223 F/TR competition recipe results in different numbers, but the same conclusion; i.e. a sacrifice in precision to gain an advantage in either MV or BC or both is worth it for me.
Anyone can do the math for their particular situation if they know the real performance of various recipes in their particular gun.
Bottom line: Accuracy is nice; however, MV and BC are not to be ignored when selecting the best combination for competition. Of course, no two shooters (or their equipment or their situation or their wind skills) are the same, so you gotta' do both the testing and the math to make an informed decision.
dmoran
Donovan Moran
Mozella -
We all have our opinions, and will respect yours as yours.....
My experience is primarily from 1000yd competitions and +20,000 rounds down my 6Dasher barrels and +10,000 down 243-Ackley's in the years before them, that is: I have experienced and seen accuracy trump ballistics repeatedly in all conditions. And my own explanation to why is because a larger dispersion is at larger disposition to worsen over distance. That will demand ballistic supremacy in windage demanded ambient to over come the already worsening accuracy disposition. Plain and simply because worse accuracy is already starting the race from behind and already beaten until "the stars line up just right" that can offer it some high levels of supremacy at a needed point in the race in order to make up the losses.
Donovan
We all have our opinions, and will respect yours as yours.....
My experience is primarily from 1000yd competitions and +20,000 rounds down my 6Dasher barrels and +10,000 down 243-Ackley's in the years before them, that is: I have experienced and seen accuracy trump ballistics repeatedly in all conditions. And my own explanation to why is because a larger dispersion is at larger disposition to worsen over distance. That will demand ballistic supremacy in windage demanded ambient to over come the already worsening accuracy disposition. Plain and simply because worse accuracy is already starting the race from behind and already beaten until "the stars line up just right" that can offer it some high levels of supremacy at a needed point in the race in order to make up the losses.
Donovan
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I agree with Donovan, but i will take this a little further. Accuracy trumps all in the wind……. Accuracy plus the bullet going to sleep trumps all. I slowed the Spencers down and they shot through the wind better. They went to sleep and are not as effected by wind as much. Speed and BC. are a secondary thing i can and do gain with trimming and pointing. It comes down to barrel and bullets, and BC. and velocity are the last things worry about till it shoots small. Don't worry about the bullets till you find a good barrel that you don't have to look at the wind flags and it will take care of you. ……. jim
Hi Steve,
Interesting discussion you opened here.
You definitely are getting a lot of experienced replies from folks who shoot in different disciplines/calibers etc.
My own experience pales in comparison to most here. But, I will echo some of the same already stated.
The Hornady 105 BTHP shoots amazingly well even though it doesn't look as sexy as some of the sleeker VLD or Hybrid bullets. Also I have shot a lot of the 80 to 95 grain bullets in 6mm BR and now Dasher and believe there is some merit to the higher velocity that they allow in the smaller cases. If that produces a benefit in your discipline remains to be seen.
When you get your barrel on I have an assortment of most of the bullets discussed. You are welcome to try some of whatever tickles your fancy. As you probably recall I shoot mostly RL15 and IMR 8208 XBR, but have been thinking about trying some CFE 223 in the BR and Dasher.
All the best,
Tim
Interesting discussion you opened here.
You definitely are getting a lot of experienced replies from folks who shoot in different disciplines/calibers etc.
My own experience pales in comparison to most here. But, I will echo some of the same already stated.
The Hornady 105 BTHP shoots amazingly well even though it doesn't look as sexy as some of the sleeker VLD or Hybrid bullets. Also I have shot a lot of the 80 to 95 grain bullets in 6mm BR and now Dasher and believe there is some merit to the higher velocity that they allow in the smaller cases. If that produces a benefit in your discipline remains to be seen.
When you get your barrel on I have an assortment of most of the bullets discussed. You are welcome to try some of whatever tickles your fancy. As you probably recall I shoot mostly RL15 and IMR 8208 XBR, but have been thinking about trying some CFE 223 in the BR and Dasher.
All the best,
Tim
I've read the above sentence several times, but I'm still not sure what you're saying. I think you mean to say that I shouldn't do load workups searching for the best bullet. Rather, before I test bullets, I should keep trying different barrels until I run across one which is somehow able to compensate for changes in the wind and one which can do that job so accurately that I need not look at the wind flags. Do I have that right or do I misunderstand what you're saying?
Sounds good. Where do I find such a barrel, how much does it cost (I'm worried that it might be expensive) and does the company offer a money back guarantee in case it can't actually read the wind?
Yes it cost money to shoot small, Donovan does more testing than anybody i know and it comes at a cost. After all the years i kind of know what bullets work and the ones that don't. I have been stung a lot of times and went the BC. mind game, and found most of it is on paper not on the target. First the best bullet may be the last lot, the next lots aren't worth the barrel wear. buy good bullets and a lot of barrels and you will find your own answers. If your looking for a 1/2" i guess about anything will work, but if your looking for a .1 gun the price is high. Your ability to read and understand the wind comes with a price tag also, Mine was over 4 years of my life are you prepared to do that? Knowing how to read the wind will make a good barrel look better. I have a lot of carefully documented rounds…… you want to learn and understand PM.me i will try to help you. Don't try to degrade the people that are trying to help you…… jim
If i were looking to load a 6br to cheat wind at mid range, offhand shots, i would go light and fast.
I dont think bc is going to do you as many favors in this scenario.
I know it does seem odd but the rare Hummer barrel does exist. I have one on an old rem my 40x .222. The darn thing shoots small groups even if I miss a wind call. A bad wind call that would throw my bullet 1/4" @100 yds with a 68gr in a ppc still drives in the same group with a ballistically inferior bullet. Tony Boyer talks about them and so do a lot of short range bench shooters. I think the barrel settles the bullets faster than others and it makes the bullets to appear to have a higher B.C. That's why you just have to test and try different things. It doesn't make sense but you may find that a 105 berger may shoot with less wind drift in your particular rifle than a 105 hybrid. I've seen weirder things. That's why I love this stuff so much. I think any of the 103-108 bullets will serve you well but you've got to try a handful to find the magic.
TAJ45
Silver $$ Contributor
A question about poi.
I've read several reports that bullet X prints 8" lower @ (pick your distance, 600, 800, 1k) with no mention of bbl harmonics. I would like to assume that the difference would be an apples to apples comparison of each combination being zeroed at a significantly shorter distance then poi being compared, say 600 then 1K.
This not being mentioned leaves me wondering and not wanting to assume.
I've read several reports that bullet X prints 8" lower @ (pick your distance, 600, 800, 1k) with no mention of bbl harmonics. I would like to assume that the difference would be an apples to apples comparison of each combination being zeroed at a significantly shorter distance then poi being compared, say 600 then 1K.
This not being mentioned leaves me wondering and not wanting to assume.
I currently am using the 105 Hybrids
I also point them , I tested this by loading 40 rds at the same time 20 pointed 20 not, all my go to load.
The pointed Hybrids impacted between 1 and 1.2 Moa higher at 900 yards, that was enough for me to decide that it was worth it. I use a .594 BC Now.
So I guess my addition to this discussion is
I would find the most accurate bullet in my rifle, then point them for consistency and bc improvement.
I also point them , I tested this by loading 40 rds at the same time 20 pointed 20 not, all my go to load.
The pointed Hybrids impacted between 1 and 1.2 Moa higher at 900 yards, that was enough for me to decide that it was worth it. I use a .594 BC Now.
So I guess my addition to this discussion is
I would find the most accurate bullet in my rifle, then point them for consistency and bc improvement.
You might want to consider using Form Factor instead of just ballistic coefficient. See this link:
http://www.bergerbullets.com/form-factors-a-useful-analysis-tool/
In general within a caliber BC goes up as weight goes up. However again, in general, velocity goes down as weight goes up. Both higher BC and higher velocity are good, and the reverse bad. Form Factor combines the two effects and gives credit to the lighter bullet for having a higher velocity. It also lets you compare performance across different calibers.
Berger makes using Form Factor easy as they publish it in their Quick Reference Table. Lower is better.
http://www.bergerbullets.com/pdf/Quick-Reference-Sheets.pdf
The Berger 105 Hybrid Target has the lowest Form Factor Target bullet for a 6mm at 0.925 and would be your best choice in the target line to minimize drift. If you select the 105 VLD Hunting it is slightly better however at 0.915. Suspect that is because it has a thinner jacket and more lead -- i.e. more dense.
The next issue is required twist. Berger recommends 1:7" for the Target Hybrid, but 1:8 for the VLD Hunting. It would seem that the Berger 105 VLD Hunting would be the best choice for your needs. The thin jacket should stand up to your needs unless you are firing strings really quickly, and then it might not...
Depending on the temperature you shoot at, and the altitude, the 105 Hybrid may work in your 8 twist too. You can check it at the link below. I found that at 70F and 2000 feet, it is ok with a 8 twist. It will work at lower elevations and temperatures too, but your BC will suffer up to 4% or so.
http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/
http://www.bergerbullets.com/form-factors-a-useful-analysis-tool/
In general within a caliber BC goes up as weight goes up. However again, in general, velocity goes down as weight goes up. Both higher BC and higher velocity are good, and the reverse bad. Form Factor combines the two effects and gives credit to the lighter bullet for having a higher velocity. It also lets you compare performance across different calibers.
Berger makes using Form Factor easy as they publish it in their Quick Reference Table. Lower is better.
http://www.bergerbullets.com/pdf/Quick-Reference-Sheets.pdf
The Berger 105 Hybrid Target has the lowest Form Factor Target bullet for a 6mm at 0.925 and would be your best choice in the target line to minimize drift. If you select the 105 VLD Hunting it is slightly better however at 0.915. Suspect that is because it has a thinner jacket and more lead -- i.e. more dense.
The next issue is required twist. Berger recommends 1:7" for the Target Hybrid, but 1:8 for the VLD Hunting. It would seem that the Berger 105 VLD Hunting would be the best choice for your needs. The thin jacket should stand up to your needs unless you are firing strings really quickly, and then it might not...
Depending on the temperature you shoot at, and the altitude, the 105 Hybrid may work in your 8 twist too. You can check it at the link below. I found that at 70F and 2000 feet, it is ok with a 8 twist. It will work at lower elevations and temperatures too, but your BC will suffer up to 4% or so.
http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/
dmoran
Donovan Moran
What was the accuracy indifference?
Reason asking, like you I have always seen gains in bullet BC from pointing, but have not always seen gains in accuracy. Some bullets yes, and others not.
Being a group shooter (primarily 1000-BR) accuracy trumps BC for me.
Donovan
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