Hi, I am the new guy and I am finding out I am really stupid.

[jonsidneyb]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post here so please forgive my newbieness.

I once thought I new a few things about guns and also thought that I used to be a pretty good shot in my younger days. I have read a few threads here now and have found out that I know nothing. I have also learned that I cannot shoot worth a darn.

I have been shooting for about 35 years and have outshoot almost everyone I shot with over the years. I thought hitting sugar cubes at 40 yards was serious shooting with a rifle and and a good day if I concentrate I can keep my shots with a handgun to about 3.5 inches. I have never been around people that can to 1/4 inch groups before. I am not sure I will be able to do one inch groups consistently. I am way out of my league here but I would like to give it a shot and see if I can learn and maybe add to my skills list.

Now I will cut to the chase on how I found you. There is a rifle project I have wanted to do for about 5 years. I started searching for information on how to get it done and what I want to do has changed as I learn. I decided to go seek out some secrets of accuracy and I ended up finding you here.

I think I need to learn more about what accuracy is and what are the fine details that make a gun accurate before I go too far. I am going to try and understand bedding, effcient cartridges, barrels and such a little bit before I can know if what I want to do is possible.

I want to build or have built what will most likely seem to you an impractical rifle but I will want to to be accurate so you seem like the right guys to ask questions of.

I am going to roam around here and try and learn a bit before I post too much. I hope all the newbie questions that are going to come out from time to time will not seem too stupid.

When I get to the point where I am ready to talk about what I want to try and do. Should it be this area or in the projects area. I think my questions will be too amaturish for the gunsmithing area.

Thanks for having a forum dedicated to accuracy.

 

[Forum Boss]

Jon,

We all started somewhere. As least you have intellectual curiousity and the willingness to open your mind to new approaches.

As far as accuracy goes, I'd say that chamber and barrel come before anything else. Meaning with a great barrel and properly done chamber you can achieve great results with a $300 Stevens action. After that, brass and bullets are key.

Tell us more about the project you have in mind. A rifle is never impractical if it does what YOU want it to do.

 

[jonsidneyb]

Thanks Editor and Chief

Let me get my language up to speed really quick so I can learn how to properly articulate it.

Thanks
Jon

 

[jonsidneyb]

I am still trying to get my mind to understand that a 1 inch group is not accurate anymore. Oh this might be a fun ride. Ok...there is a new goal in life, to one day shoot a .5 moa group.

 

[BoydAllen]

With the right rifle,and ammunition, resting on the correct rest/sandbag setup, I think that you will find that you too can shoot very small groups. One of the fun things that I do at the range, after I have achieved my goals for the day, and the rifle is in perfect tune, is to see if there is anyone on the range who would likely benefit from the experience of shooting the smallest group of his life. I usually do this when the wind is being kind, and the group is usually in the twos.

To get to the leading edge in accuracy, it helps to have a teacher that can work with you one on one. There are a lot of little details that must all be handled correctly, but getting there is a lot of fun. Just remember that it takes the whole package to get there, and it is much better to copy what is already is proven until you get to a level where you have the experience to innovate.

 

[Bobs243Ackley]

Hi Jon,

Welcome to the forum! It is great to be able to help someone who wants to better themselves! As our moderator said to you, "We all started at the beginning" I am 54, and my dad started me reloading when I was six, and started me shooting at seven. I thought that I knew something about reloading until I discovered the folks at Sinclair International some 20 years ago. Boy! Did I get my eyes opened up! But the day they offered me a job to work for them told me that I had done my homework. I have worked for them for almost 15 years, and one of my daily personal goals is to learn something new every day that I go into the office to help the folks that call. I have learned that one can ever know everything! So, do not be afraid to ask "stupid" questions. The only stupid question is the one that you never ask! Believe me, since I have made it a point to still ask questions.

Cordially,
Bob Blaine

 

[Klong]

Welcome to the group. There are really only a couple of stupid things around here. 1 is not asking questions or advice. The other is not using the advice after hearing it. There is a lot of knowledge here. You will hear differing opinions on some things and will have to decide what best fits your circumstance, needs, or budget. Good luck on your project.

 

[jonsidneyb]

Thanks for the nice welcome.

I guess everyone I have ever shot with was not really that good or did not have the tools. People used to think that I was really good when I would hit small close targets and modestly distant targets with a Weathery XXII.

The people would also think I was good when I could do 6 for 6 with a 6-inch K-frame revolver at about 25 yards though most of my revolver shooting was much closer.

You guys have opened my eyes that a 2 inch 100 yard group is not that great of shooting.

I am not going to post much for awhile, I want to do alot of reading here first and learn just enough to become completely confused. Then I will start asking more questions.

That said I am guessing the starting place is getting a rifle made perhaps in 6mmBR and find someone to work with and learn?

Hold that question, I probably should follow my own advice and read a bunch first.

 

[tootalloutdoors]

Do read a bunch, and a bunch. But, buy that 6br and start shooting and reloading. The only difference between you and I is I'm shooting and loading. Don't spend $3000.00 on the gun. I'm shooting my first 6br as a savage with a pac-nor barrel.
I'm completely amazed at the accuracy potential. I can only speak for myself but I got extreamely hooked on this stuff. I guess when I started out knowing so little the first years growth seems huge.,I guess because it is) totalloutdoors

 

[Forum Boss]

Short of purchasing a used 6PPC BR rifle, I think a 6BR is just about the most efficient path to consistent quarter-moa accuracy, with easy tuning, all the way out to 600 yards.

A PPC is an awesome caliber for shooting little groups, but what I've seen at my club is that an 8-twist 6BR can be competitive in the club-level fun matches at 100, 200, 300, 500 and 600. It's a very versatile caliber.

I've noticed recently an interest among many of our readers to go for a hot rod 6mm. One thing to keep in mind that once you go bigger than a Dasher or BRX you are burning a lot more powder and you start to get more noticeable recoil. I find, with my 14.5 lb rifle, I can see bullet hits most of the time. When I was shooting my .260 with 123gr bullets from the same stock/same action, I could not.

That's one advantage to staying within the 6BR/6BR improved format, and keeping bullet weights under 110 grains.

 

[USAPatriot]

Jon

Welcome. I'm glad you recognized what we've known all along...

Uh, no, I didn't just insult you but it was supposed to look that way Some of us have a sense of humor AND are good lookin' too!

All of us were newbies at this game at some point and have been equally stupid...even with years of experience we're not immune to doing dumb things on occasion. You'll learn, with time and practice. Remember, the only really dumb question is the one you don't ask.

On a more practical note, a suggestion. Before you go and build a rifle, buy one. If you can get your hands on something in a Rem700VS in .223, and slap a Jewell trigger in it, and a good scope on it, you can spend a few years learning about accuracy shooting without the expense of a rifle build. Right out of the box most 700's I believe are fully capable of 1/4 MOA accuracy and can exceed that on occasion with good handloads. After a few years or a few thousand rounds, whichever comes first, you should have a good working knowledge of ballistics, how environment can be used to your benefit, handloading, equipment and technique for you to then sit back and make informed decisions about how to proceed without having to rely almost totally on the opinions of others. Just my two cents.

Again, welcome. -Rod-

 

[jonsidneyb]

What I have been shooting most of my life in the way of long arms is limited but they have a lot or rounds through them.

Most of my shooting has been with a Remington 700 30-06 just like it came from the factory more than 30 years ago. A Weatherby XXII that I got when I was in high school, a Weatherby .300 which I no longer have, and a Ruger Mini-14 which I cannot hit anything with. The other long arm is a Remington 870 which does not count here in rifle world.

With the Remington 700 I thrilled when I once in a while get what looks like a 2 inch group. I can produce about the same with the .22 Rimfire Weatherby XXII. When I shoot the Mini-14 it is really sad. I can shoot Brenkie Slugs out of the Remington 870 smoothbore almost as accuratly as I can shoot the Mini-14 at 25 yards. I think this must be a super bad example of the gun.

Perhaps the tools I have been useing are just not up to real accuracy or I do not have the skills to bring what accuracy in them out.

I do think if I need to relearn to shoot I would like to go with low recoil so I can concentrate on relearning how to shoot.

The occational 2 inch group out of my 30-06 is obviously not going to cut it. The scope I use on the Remington is a Leupold 2.5x8 but I see that is also very underpowered for this world.

 

[USAPatriot]

I would say that your old '06 Rem 700 is a far cry from the 700 of today, right out of the box, no doubt about it. If you'd like to relearn your shooting skills with a low recoiling weapon, the 700VS or LVS .223 would seem to be just the ticket. -Rod-

 

[jonsidneyb]

I have been reading a ton. I am still shooting the old guns.

I will make the leap eventually. This will not be much to the guys out here that can kill flys at distance with a rifle but I am managing to product 1 hole groups at 25 yards consistently with a .22 rimfire. I do know if I stretched the range that one hole will grow fast. The funny thing is it is a semi auto that I am getting one hole groups with.

The mini-14 might as well be a full chock shotgun and the 700 BDL is still a 2moa gun.

I am starting to think I don't really want or need to power I used to think I want out of a gun.

I think what I want from my long arms is changing a bit. I still want a light compact walking rifle that is at least 1 moa in a smallish cartridge. Possibly going minimal in cartridge size and power that could be resonably used for deer but most often for small targets. The gun I think should replace the 30-06 would be something that would fit in the .308 length action and would be considered a decent middle weight hunting gun. Maybe something in 6.5mm to take advantage of the sectional density. I am also intereted in a gun more in the lines of this forum, one that I can learn to shoot accurately with at distance. The idea of trying a .223 in a varmit or BR type configuration might be the ticket. After spending sometime with it I could rebarrel it into a nice 6mm accuracy gun.

I thought about seeing if rebarreling the 700 would be in order but I think I don't want that 30-06 length action anymore. I don't see a need for that long action anymore.

 

[NeilNE]

Here is some of my suggestion for you.
Let us know where you’re from. Most of us will be more than happy to go to a range and help you. Or go to a Bench Rest,BR) shoot and talk to the people there.

In short range BR, up to 300yds, you need a light recoil cartridge, or if your not interested in BR, a cartridge that you can shoot allot and not get sore shooting and start to flinch. From 222 to 6BR are good ones. Now if you want to shoot large cal., you need to have a heavy gun. My heaviest gun weighs 65lbs,my 1000yd gun). Now you do not need this heavy, but at least 15+lbs. One last thing, start with a case that is readily available, no improved or wildcats, at least for now.

Now the last thing. Most of the people here started with hunting rifles and then wanting more accuracy and started to modified there gun. Translated into, spending a buttttttttttttt load of money.

If you want to do this, jump in with both feet and buy a custom action BR gun. The used one can go for less the $1500,saves money in long run) and you get the custom action, BR stock, trigger,2oz) and maybe dies, brass and reloading equipment. Now if you get a good gun you also need the following: good rest,front and rear), scope and reloading equipment.
A couple of places to look at is http://benchrest.com/shooterscorner/the_list.html and
http://benchrest.com.

Good luck. We all started as you did. And I do enjoy spending your money!!!!!!!!!

 

[okie]

I agree with patriot get yourself a thick barelled 700 or a savage and shoot!!! there is no substitute for experience. I dont know where you live But where I do we take our rifles everywhere. so when a shooting opportunity arises,we shoot!! paper rocks crows coyotes deer hogs cans This may ruffle some feathers but i learned how to shoot,a700) out of a truck window. the fact is that my factory 700 shoots .25 moa with black hills 2nds!! ,I get to spend more time shootin and less loadin) I agree that .25 wouldnt win a BR match in a 35 MPH wind but I can Hit any critter I want.

 

[jonsidneyb]

I shoot in my back yard. I think my biggest problem is that the only long arm that I have shot with that is mechanically somewhat accurate is the Weathery XXII rimfire.

 

[mikecr]

Something not yet mentioned that I think you might consider, is what accuracy actually is. Accuracy means hitting your mark. Or atleast, as close as possible to hitting your mark. It's not group shooting.

For example, a 1/2moa group may seem impressive. But if it's 2moa from your mark, I would suggest the system is not accurate at all. Don't hunt with that system,atleast not long range).
Many people assume grouping demonstrates accuracy, but it doesn't. People assume that an accurate hunting rifle is alot like a BR gun, but it isn't. With all factors taken into account, they couldn't be more different.

Grouping is precision. Much of this is consistancy in components and shooting under set conditions.. Competiton.
BUT..
Think your system is 1/2moa 'accurate'?
Set up a 1/2" bull at 100, 1"bull@200, 1.5"bull@300, etc. Shoot a single cold bore shot at any one, let your barrel cool, then dial your scope and take a single CBS at another. Go as far as you can, back and forth,takes hours), & see how 'accurate' your system truly is. If you do well here, you may have something to brag about regardless of grouping. Right? Try it.
I just finished a local competiton running this format in a process of elimination,a miss & your out). No rests, but a feed sack full of dirt off a picnic table. It went 9 rounds & 32 shooters with their best guns learned the differences I'm talkin about pretty quick.

Just depends on what is really important to you.
Either accuracy, precision, or both. Don't think your gun is junk cuz it won't group well. It could be awesome.

 

[Aussie_bob]

Well here is my suggestion from across the pond and what worked for me. Read all the info on what is working as in the 6PPC, 6BR, 30BR 6X47L, 6.5X47L and many others go to the range near you when a comp is on and have a look at all the gear being used and ASK QUESTIONS they are a help full mob and don`t mind helping out newbies you just never know someone could sit you down at their bench and let you shoot a .25" group or knock the dots out on a score target. I started shooting benchrest with .22lr and improved to where i was winning State and National comps then progressed to center fire i am mainly BR for score shooter tho have been known to shoot some awsome small groups at 100 & 200 yards and a 1.75" at 500m last year which won me the comp. There is no rush go to some comps even if you have to travel a bit you will not be disappointed there is plenty to see and learn.