I'm loading for a good friends 270WSM, savage factory model 16. Couldn't find reasonably priced winchester brass but did find some norma on sell so i picked up 100 and did some load testing today. I knew that the norma brass was thicker and all of the published load data i could find was for winchester so I expected some difference. However I was shocked. Multiple print sources for the 140 Hornady SST referenced 62.5 grains for a max charge of Hogdon 4831SC which is what I would like to use, have a bunch of it. I started load workup at 58 grains and went up in .5 increments, this is just a hunting load for 200-300 yards shots. To my surprise the winchester large rifle magnum primers where a bit flat at 58 grains. Not ironed out so I kept going. by 59 they were starting to get to the point that I wanted no more and considered that a max load. Now maybe I should try a different primer as there was no bolt lift issues but that is a full 3.5 grains under book max for winchester brass. Found a great load at 57.5 after reworking my loads but the velocity is terrible. 140 grain SST at 2724, SD=6 (only 5 shots). Is this normal for norma brass to be this much different from winchester and what other powders or primers would you all try to get some more velocity out of the gun? I need something decently temp stable as deer season around here can run 70 one day and 0 the next.
HELP WSM and Norma Brass Issues
- Thread starter wvuredneck09
- Start date
Velocity seems low. I don't have a 270 but shoot a lot of 300WSM with Norma. I can easily get 2850 with a 210 and H4350. If the headspace of the brass is short, it may be driving them forward and the primers backing out a little and the getting slammed against the bolt face. This could show false pressure. The 300 WSM Norma brass is thick. I would measure the back of the case or extractor groove to see if they are expanding. A better way to judge pressure. Matt
You might want to fill a case with water and weigh it to see what you are getting for case capacity. They are supposed to be about 79 grains from what I can see.
The other issue would be seating depth. Is bullet length forcing you to seat them back in the case?
Based on Hodgdon data, Retumbo is probably your best choice for max velocity, with H1000 second, and H3831SC third. They will be compressed loads for Retumbo and probably H1000, so it will also depend on whether or not you can get the powder in, if your case is low on capacity.
The 270 WSM was apparently approved by SAAMI at 65,000 psi max, so the primers probably are going to be showing a little pressure at that point...
Okay so I never even checked headspace since the brass was new and they chambered, so no way to make em grown other than shoot them, I neck sized to make sure the tension was consistent. Might have found the problem. Fired cases are measuring 3.758 on my comparator (not actual true length), New cases are only 3.747! Case heads just above extractor new are around .553 fired are coming in around .555. This brass is crazy loose by these measurements in the chamber. I'm starting out with the bullet .020 off the lands so the bullet is a little deep but not crazy.
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Fired case capacity on the norma brass measured out to 79.8gr to the mouth of the case.
So if it is headspace causing my flattened primers how should I proceed short of firing all 100 and starting over on the load work up, not an option as I only have 100 of the bullets for him.
You may have to get more bullets. There is the cream of wheat method of fire forming, but I have never done it, so i will leave that to others to comment on. If you do a search on fire forming or COW you should find lots of info on it. Another method is to neck up the brass and then partially size it back down to form a false shoulder. And last you can take the expander ball out of your die and size the neck down to minimum without sizing it back up again with the ball. Then seat the bullets to jam into the lands about 0.010". The purpose of the false shoulder or the jam is to prevent the case from jumping forward.
This all said, something still does not sound right. I don't think 0.010" extra headspace on new SAAMI brass in a SAAMI chamber is unusual. You case volume measurement seems normal. Perhaps try Retumbo and live with the max velocity you can get until they have been fired once?
My plan right now is to load up on of the fired cases and see how it looks pressure wise.
As dkhunt14 is explaining, there is a good chance you are seeing a false pressure sign. There are times i don't pay attention or care if primers are flat if it is the only sign and determined to be false due to head space.
Take a once fired case with minimal measured shoulder bump, (if even needed) load it shoot it and chances are primers will look different.
It's a Savage, you have the option of making it fit the cases or better yet your die. JMHO
That is what I would do, get a wsm go gauge and reset head space to go +.002", then you will not be working your new brass as much.
I guess I could adjust the headspace of the gun although i dont have any go/no go gauges around so I would have to use the casings to do it.
Just got home neck sized a piece of the 1 fired and loaded up 60.5 grains which was all I dared yesterday shoot. Fired it off and while the primer is still a little flat its not bad. Case head went from .555 to .556, brass will still chamber but is a bit snug now, might keep loading this single piece as others have advised me to do in order to figure out where my actual pressure max is. Might try a different powder as well. Thoughts?
Just got home neck sized a piece of the 1 fired and loaded up 60.5 grains which was all I dared yesterday shoot. Fired it off and while the primer is still a little flat its not bad. Case head went from .555 to .556, brass will still chamber but is a bit snug now, might keep loading this single piece as others have advised me to do in order to figure out where my actual pressure max is. Might try a different powder as well. Thoughts?
Okay so i took my highest charge fired piece of brass from yesterday and measured it up sized and fired it over and over increasing the powder charge by .5 each time. I never got to a load that flattened the primer like the 60.5 did yesterday and stopped at 63 grains (0.5 over book max). All of the loads slightly flattened the primers but nothing of concern like i had on the new brass. Here is what I ended up with measurement wise.
Charge,Head diameter just above web, headspace measurement, velocity
New, 0.553, 3.747, NA
60.5, 0.555, 3.758, 2831
60.5, 0.5559, 3.759, 2840
61, 0.5560, 3.759, 2886
61.5, 0.5562, 3.759, 2925
At this point the bolt was having trouble closing on the brass (I was running the bolt on the fired case after every firing to check this) so I pulled the body die out and sized to the following measurements, the die actually was set to size more than needed.
Body Die, 0.5550, 3.755, Trimmed brass to 2.090
62, 0.5558, 3.759, 2936
62.5, 0.5559, 3.759, 2952
63, 0.5559, 3.760, 2959
Web measurements are the best i could get without a blade micrometer, which I need to get. Neck sizing was done with a lee collet die. I was hoping for 3000 with this bullet so I may try a different powder tomorrow if the sun holds out when i get home from work. The case above still has a tight primer pocket and no visible issues that would stop me from loading it up again.
Charge,Head diameter just above web, headspace measurement, velocity
New, 0.553, 3.747, NA
60.5, 0.555, 3.758, 2831
60.5, 0.5559, 3.759, 2840
61, 0.5560, 3.759, 2886
61.5, 0.5562, 3.759, 2925
At this point the bolt was having trouble closing on the brass (I was running the bolt on the fired case after every firing to check this) so I pulled the body die out and sized to the following measurements, the die actually was set to size more than needed.
Body Die, 0.5550, 3.755, Trimmed brass to 2.090
62, 0.5558, 3.759, 2936
62.5, 0.5559, 3.759, 2952
63, 0.5559, 3.760, 2959
Web measurements are the best i could get without a blade micrometer, which I need to get. Neck sizing was done with a lee collet die. I was hoping for 3000 with this bullet so I may try a different powder tomorrow if the sun holds out when i get home from work. The case above still has a tight primer pocket and no visible issues that would stop me from loading it up again.
If you don't have the "Savage headspace adjustment" luxury, you can always do like I did to my new 6.5-284 brass. I had .009 to .010 headspace on new brass, so I "dasherized" my brass to give me a zero headspace and shoot them as normal. Only 1 extra step to normal brass prep. Ended up with PERFECT brass.
Tod
Reloader 26 fixed my velocity problem, wow will it run the 140s fast.
3200 with little to no pressure signs on the fireformed brass. tried a piece of the virgin brass and once again it looked like the primer was poured into the brass. Have some factory second 270 bullets on the way to jam in the lands and form the rest of the batch. will give my buddy some trigger time and I can use up some partial jugs of powder that only have 20-30 rounds worth left.
3200 with little to no pressure signs on the fireformed brass. tried a piece of the virgin brass and once again it looked like the primer was poured into the brass. Have some factory second 270 bullets on the way to jam in the lands and form the rest of the batch. will give my buddy some trigger time and I can use up some partial jugs of powder that only have 20-30 rounds worth left.
I am glad to hear you got the problem resolved. Matt
Wouldn't have figured it out without everyones help. Love this forum. Another donation is in order.
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