Help with sizing die

[Timon]

Hope someone can help me with this. I’m in some kind of a brain fog situation and just cannot figure this out. I’ve been reloading for about 15 years but just cannot figure this out. I’m getting pretty old now and sometimes solutions to problems like this one don’t come as easy as they used to.

So, I had a reloading set up for many years and had no issues with it, but it was all getting very old, so I decided to replace it. I got a new press, an RCBS Rebel and then a new sizing die from SAC because I had been using their bushings an they just worked great.

Here is my issue. I go to set up the die by starting to thread it in. Then I raise the Ram to the top, turn the die down until it touches the shellholder on the ram. I lower the ram, then turn the die down about another quarter of a turn, as the press is a cam over type. I measure a piece of brass, then put it in the press and size it. Then take the case out and measure it and there is no change in it.

I then begin to turn the die down a little at a time, resizing the brass each time. I still get no change in the brass. I keep turning the die down and the brass just does not change its headspace measurement. If I’m lucky I might see a one thousandth change before the die is down so far the press will no longer cam over.

I’m shooting a rifle with a very tight Pierce action, so I don’t get a whole lot of expansion. The cases will chamber without any setback, but I do want at least one thousandth for expansion in the chamber. I have been just accepting the one thousandth set back and loading with it. It actually shoots very good. However, I know that this is not using the die, or the press correctly, so I’m trying to figure out the solution.

There has to be some simple answer in sure, but I just cannot figure out what it is. Can one of you guys help out an old guy that is at whits end with this thing.

Scott

 

[spike-55]

Not familiar with that particular press or the Short Action Custom dies, but it could be your shell holder??? Not sure how far down the SAC dies will size past the .200 line but it might be as simple as changing shell holder brands. Or you can get some 60 grit sandpaper and and a piece of tile or glass (any really flat surface) and sand down the face of your your shell holder enough to give you the required bump. You can mark it with paint or fingernail polish to designate you have altered it??? Once you get to your required bump on your shoulders you can stop sanding. You can get another shell holder for under 10 bucks and all is good.
Or you can take the other route and take the same amount off the bottom of the die???
Stan

 

[BoydAllen]

There are a couple of issues here that you need to address. First of all, the method that you are using to set your die is not correct, although in the case of this rifle that is not the cause of your problem. You did not tell us that you were trying to size once fired brass, but I will assume that your are. The purpose for bumping shoulders is to create clearance, IF IT IS NEEDED. It is pretty uncommon for a case to reach the maximum shoulder to head dimension on its first firing, and until it does, and it gets tight shoulder to head, you do not need to bump your shoulders back. Generally, I like to neck size a single case and fire it several times that way, using stout but safe load, and track the shoulder to head dimension to its maximum, and use that dimension to bump back from. If I have to use once fired brass, and do not have the time to fire a neck sized case several times, I set the die to produce the same shoulder to head dimension as the fired case, and then try the case in the rifle. Typically there is no resistance. Do you have the tools to accurately measure cases from shoulder to head, such as the Hornady Headspace gauge? It is really just a comparator that is misnamed. If you cannot bump back the shoulder of a tight case the next move would be to carefully shorten your shell holder. This can be done by hand using wet and dry paper, a flat surface, measuring as you go with calipers. You will find that the side with the opening for a case cuts faster, so you will need to turn it toward you when pushing the holder away from you. On toggle, it should not be extreme, but only slight. This takes the slack out of the linkage which is all that you need.

 

[Timon]

There are a couple of issues here that you need to address. First of all, the method that you are using to set your die is not correct, although in the case of this rifle that is not the cause of your problem. You did not tell us that you were trying to size once fired brass, but I will assume that your are. The purpose for bumping shoulders is to create clearance, IF IT IS NEEDED. It is pretty uncommon for a case to reach the maximum shoulder to head dimension on its first firing, and until it does, and it gets tight shoulder to head, you do not need to bump your shoulders back. Generally, I like to neck size a single case and fire it several times that way, using stout but safe load, and track the shoulder to head dimension to its maximum, and use that dimension to bump back from. If I have to use once fired brass, and do not have the time to fire a neck sized case several times, I set the die to produce the same shoulder to head dimension as the fired case, and then try the case in the rifle. Typically there is no resistance. Do you have the tools to accurately measure cases from shoulder to head, such as the Hornady Headspace gauge? It is really just a comparator that is misnamed. If you cannot bump back the shoulder of a tight case the next move would be to carefully shorten your shell holder. This can be done by hand using wet and dry paper, a flat surface, measuring as you go with calipers. You will find that the side with the opening for a case cuts faster, so you will need to turn it toward you when pushing the holder away from you. On toggle, it should not be extreme, but only slight. This takes the slack out of the linkage which is all that you need.

Thanks so much. I have all the proper tools to measure just about anything reloading related. I am truly anal about taking and recording measurements of everything. It’s all Mitutoyo and Short Action Custom measuring devices. Every piece is weight and length sorted, including primers. I actually measure 5 spots on the brass, before and after sizing to ensure the sizing is taking place properly along the case. This brass is on its 12th shooting, Lapua stuff. You mentioned that I’m setting the die up wrong, could you tell me what is wrong, or what the proper method would be?

If I’m bs’er standing you correctly, I need to get more depth for the case by lowering the face of the case holder. Am I correct in that thought? I do have a set of the Redding Competition Shellholder Sets. I’m going to take a look at them and see if the face of those might be lower that the original holder that I’m using.

Thanks so much. If you could answer my question about setting up the die incorrectly I would really appreciate it.

Thanks again.

Scott

 

[rkb21]

Scott
What bushing do you have in the die neck sizing or shoulder bump

 

[BoydAllen]

Thanks so much. I have all the proper tools to measure just about anything reloading related. I am truly anal about taking and recording measurements of everything. It’s all Mitutoyo and Short Action Custom measuring devices. Every piece is weight and length sorted, including primers. I actually measure 5 spots on the brass, before and after sizing to ensure the sizing is taking place properly along the case. This brass is on its 12th shooting, Lapua stuff. You mentioned that I’m setting the die up wrong, could you tell me what is wrong, or what the proper method would be?

If I’m bs’er standing you correctly, I need to get more depth for the case by lowering the face of the case holder. Am I correct in that thought? I do have a set of the Redding Competition Shellholder Sets. I’m going to take a look at them and see if the face of those might be lower that the original holder that I’m using.

Thanks so much. If you could answer my question about setting up the die incorrectly I would really appreciate it.

Thanks again.

Scott

The shortest of the competition set is the same as a standard shell holder, the rest are taller in increments of .002. With the additional information about number of firings, the reason for your problem is a combination of very tight barrel headspace, and work hardening of the brass. In this case, carefully shortening a shell holder (and permanently marking it) is the way to go. Work hardening causes cases to have more spring back. If you continue to have cases that are easy to chamber with your die set for light toggle then you do not need to do anything. We bump because we need clearance and if a case chambers freely, clearance does not need to be increased.

 

[Clancy]

You sure it’s not one of those dies that takes the shoulder bushing? This is weird.

 

[M-61]

The purpose for bumping shoulders is to create clearance, IF IT IS NEEDED

100% correct

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Not familiar with that particular press or the Short Action Custom dies, but it could be your shell holder??? Not sure how for down the SAC dies will size past the .200 line but it might be as simple as changing shell holder brands. Or you can get some 60 grit sandpaper and and a piece of tile or glass (any really flat surface) and sand down the face of your your shell holder enough to give you the required bump. You can mark it with paint or fingernail polish to designate you have altered it??? Once you get to your required bump on your shoulders you can stop sanding. You can get another shell holder for under 10 bucks and all is good.
Or you can take the other route and take the same amount off the bottom of the die???
Stan

This

 

[Timon]

Scott
What bushing do you have in the die neck sizing or shoulder bump

It’s a SAC .244. I think that I may have just found my own answer, after you all cleared my “fog” a bit. The SAC die comes with a set of shims. There is a set of four one thousands shims. I can see if I put them in, one at a time, just above the bushing in the die, it should accomplish what I’m looking for. I’m off to try it and see if it works. To the room . . .

 

[Timon]

100% correct

Thank you, I’m aware of this. I like to put one thousands bump on my brass after every shoot. It shoots very good, so I’m going to stay with that. I’m just trying to find out why, should I want to bump it further, I can’t seem to do it on my setup.

 

[Timon]

I’m happy to say that the shims did indeed work perfect. They are advertised as .001” each, but I found if I use two of them, I will get a one thousands bump. Four of them gives me a two thousands bump.

Thank you everyone for your help. Your inputs did indeed clear a bit of “fog” out and find the solution.

Thanks again, so much!

Scott

 

[Eagle Six]

The use of their shims is listed in the die setup instructions. This may very well solve your issue, as you have surmised.

OOps I posted over your results!

 

[Timon]

The use of their shims is listed in the die setup instructions. This may very well solve your issue, as you have surmised.

Thanks

 

[Phys86]

@BoydAllen , when you use the term toggle, is this the same as cam over?

 

[BoydAllen]

@BoydAllen , when you use the term toggle, is this the same as cam over?

Yes.

It turns out that I really needed to be more familiar with the specifics of the SAC dies before giving advice. For that die, adding shims lowers the bushing that is a combination of neck and shoulder. This is unique to this die and I was not aware of it. My bad. In any case doing a little research yielded a link to this video, which had the needed information, well into the video. It also mentioned something that was interesting relating to the relation between toggling and bump uniformity. Evidently in their testing not toggling gave better results. In any case, here is the link. For those who are not familiar with their product, I recommend it. It is a unique design.

 

[JFrank]

The 4.24 mark of the video talks about the die having .015 more sizing available than other die.

 

[K22]

A wise man once told me that it is amazing what can be accomplished if one first reads the instructions.

 

[Timon]

A wise man once told me that it is amazing what can be accomplished if one first reads the instructions.

I had read the instructions and watched the video, however I will not use something until I’m certain about how they are working. I knew that they included the shims and said that they could be used, but until today I was not certain how they would modify the headspace setting. I took the die apart on a table in front of me and it struck me how they would do what is advertised. Then I put them to the test and they worked. I need to know how something works, before I will use it. This die is not the same as most sizing dies out there and until today, I was not certain how each of its features operate. I’m very happy now though! You are definitely right about reading the directions though.

 

[Dave M.]

Hope someone can help me with this. I’m in some kind of a brain fog situation and just cannot figure this out. I’ve been reloading for about 15 years but just cannot figure this out. I’m getting pretty old now and sometimes solutions to problems like this one don’t come as easy as they used to.

So, I had a reloading set up for many years and had no issues with it, but it was all getting very old, so I decided to replace it. I got a new press, an RCBS Rebel and then a new sizing die from SAC because I had been using their bushings an they just worked great.

Here is my issue. I go to set up the die by starting to thread it in. Then I raise the Ram to the top, turn the die down until it touches the shellholder on the ram. I lower the ram, then turn the die down about another quarter of a turn, as the press is a cam over type. I measure a piece of brass, then put it in the press and size it. Then take the case out and measure it and there is no change in it.

I then begin to turn the die down a little at a time, resizing the brass each time. I still get no change in the brass. I keep turning the die down and the brass just does not change its headspace measurement. If I’m lucky I might see a one thousandth change before the die is down so far the press will no longer cam over.

I’m shooting a rifle with a very tight Pierce action, so I don’t get a whole lot of expansion. The cases will chamber without any setback, but I do want at least one thousandth for expansion in the chamber. I have been just accepting the one thousandth set back and loading with it. It actually shoots very good. However, I know that this is not using the die, or the press correctly, so I’m trying to figure out the solution.

There has to be some simple answer in sure, but I just cannot figure out what it is. Can one of you guys help out an old guy that is at whits end with this thing.

Scott

If it’s new brass the shoulder will be way short the chamber. Also, turning one quarter past the contact point, you will likely be over sizing the brass significantly (this misconception that you need to turn 1/4-1/2 turn past the contact point continues to be stated by many conventional die manufacturers and it just isn’t necessary. If it is fired brass the above statement doesn’t apply per se. SAC dies use unique bushings (non standard bushings). Are you using the correct SAC bushing?
Finally, are you using the correct headspace comparator? The comparator to measure base to shoulder, should contact about half way between the neck and the body.
Dave