Help with problem measuring lands

[Pigdog]

Guys looking for some help here . I'm getting extremely frustrated trying to measure my seating depth to the lands with some 130berger vld. I have used the method where you seat bullet long and chamber round and take it out to measure no problems with lapua scenars. This is my first experience with vld bullets and everytime I do this the bullets are getting stuck in the lands!!!! I have seen Alex wheelers video and tried this as well but same issue bullets keep getting stuck. I have tried using a neck sized case and soft seating I have tried partially neck sizing a case so that there is only a bit of tension on bullet I have tried fired cases with no neck sizing all have the same result of stuck bullets!!

I'm starting to get worried about putting the cleaning rod down the barrel so much to remove stuck bullets that it's going to damage barrel. It's a 6.5x47l. I don't have the machine skills to make the custom case method for the hornady tool.

What can I do?? All I want is a base line touch length so I have a number to do some seating depth tests from.

 

[Mulligan]

Guys looking for some help here . I'm getting extremely frustrated trying to measure my seating depth to the lands with some 130berger vld. I have used the method where you seat bullet long and chamber round and take it out to measure no problems with lapua scenars. This is my first experience with vld bullets and everytime I do this the bullets are getting stuck in the lands!!!! I have seen Alex wheelers video and tried this as well but same issue bullets keep getting stuck. I have tried using a neck sized case and soft seating I have tried partially neck sizing a case so that there is only a bit of tension on bullet I have tried fired cases with no neck sizing all have the same result of stuck bullets!!

I'm starting to get worried about putting the cleaning rod down the barrel so much to remove stuck bullets that it's going to damage barrel. It's a 6.5x47l. I don't have the machine skills to make the custom case method for the hornady tool.

What can I do?? All I want is a base line touch length so I have a number to do some seating depth tests from.

@Pigdog
I had the same issue one time. It ended up being a bit of carbon buildup in the throat. Once I scrubbed the throat with some IOSSO the seating went as it should.
CW

 

[Falfan2017]

Use more neck tension. Are you using brass that you've resized or are you using a fired case?

I've found the wheeler method more reliable. If you're using lands to soft seat bullets your'e going to get different measurements depending on your neck tension.

 

[Ccrider]

Use more neck tension. Are you using brass that you've resized or are you using a fired case?

+1

 

[jepp2]

What can I do??

In the 60's the common practice was to blacken the bullet with soot from a candle in a dummy case. Makes contact with the lands very easy to see. Today you might use bluing or magic marker to do the same thing. Just keep seating deeper until the land marks don't appear.

I have the Hornady tool, but find I get much more accurate (repeatable to a couple of thousandths) using a rod with two stops. Mine happens to be more precision where each stop is exactly 0.500", so I can measure on the outside and subtract an inch. I seat the bullet softly with a 1/8" wood dowel and measure from the muzzle after setting a stop on the bolt face.

 

[dolek]

Sounds like proper neck tension is your problem . A FL sized brass should hold the bullet just fine for a stripped-bolt test.

 

[Mulligan]

Remember, more neck tension will also drive the bullet deeper into the lands, there is a point of diminishing returns.
CW

 

[fguffey]

Guys looking for some help here . I'm getting extremely frustrated trying to measure my seating depth to the lands with some 130berger vld.

I was accused of being a non-bench rester, I was flattered because many years ago I thought a bench rester should know how to determine the distance from the lands at the end of the throat to the bolt face. I do not have all of the problems other eloaders have when it comes to demanding attention.

I use a method I call 'transfer' I transfer the dimensions of the chamber to the seating die, other reloaders are so busy demanding their methods is better and or the best or some manufacturer is trying to sell the 'better ideal'. Those that demand attention insist on using a loose neck, I insist I use all the bullet hold I can get, if I do use all the bullet hold I can get I can use the came case tomorrow, next month etc..

It is all about tools and the way the reloader uses them.

F. Guffey

 

[dolek]

I was accused of being a non-bench rester, I was flattered because many years ago I thought a bench rester should know how to determine the distance from the lands at the end of the throat to the bolt face. I do not have all of the problems other eloaders have when it comes to demanding attention.

I use a method I call 'transfer' I transfer the dimensions of the chamber to the seating die, other reloaders are so busy demanding their methods is better and or the best or some manufacturer is trying to sell the 'better ideal'. Those that demand attention insist on using a loose neck, I insist I use all the bullet hold I can get, if I do use all the bullet hold I can get I can use the came case tomorrow, next month etc..

It is all about tools and the way the reloader uses them.

F. Guffey

Transfer some funds...

 

[Homerange]

I use a method I call 'transfer' I transfer the dimensions of the chamber to the seating die, other reloaders are so busy demanding their methods is better and or the best or some manufacturer is trying to sell the 'better ideal'. Those that demand attention insist on using a loose neck, I insist I use all the bullet hold I can get, if I do use all the bullet hold I can get I can use the came case tomorrow, next month etc..

It is all about tools and the way the reloader uses them.

F. Guffey

Exactly !

Two cleaning rods and a lockable stop.
Close bolt, insert rod and set stop at muzzle. (bolt face measurement)
Remove bolt, insert projectile into chamber and hold gently in place with 2nd cleaning rod.
Insert first rod into barrel until it touches projectile tip and with the 'inside tips' on calipers measure difference between muzzle and prefixed stop.
This is max COAL for the projectile used.
Write this down with bullet info.

For other/different projectiles, rinse and repeat !

 

[Pigdog]

Thanks everyone so many responses that dowel idea seems awsome I think I will give that a go.

Just to answer a few of the questions I tried using fired cases that had not yet been neck sized and also neck sized cases and either way was pulling the bullets out. I don't have any other neck bushing to use then the one I have.

 

[moondog]

In the 60's the common practice was to blacken the bullet with soot from a candle in a dummy case. Makes contact with the lands very easy to see. Today you might use bluing or magic marker to do the same thing. Just keep seating deeper until the land marks don't appear.

I have the Hornady tool, but find I get much more accurate (repeatable to a couple of thousandths) using a rod with two stops. Mine happens to be more precision where each stop is exactly 0.500", so I can measure on the outside and subtract an inch. I seat the bullet softly with a 1/8" wood dowel and measure from the muzzle after setting a stop on the bolt face.

View attachment 1068603 View attachment 1068604

Kinda like that. I use the Sinclair tool I got Years ago and it has been GTG. I sold the Hornady stuff after I got that set up.

 

[tmwinds]

Measuring to the tip of the bullets by running a dowel in the barrel is not a very accurate method to determine the seating depth. I just randomly measured 10 Berger 6mm 105 VLD's from the same lot. The base to tip varied as much as .010. The base to ogive was no more than .001.

The measurement you need is base to ogive which is what touches the lands and you can't get that by touching a dowel to the tip of the bullet.

Also remember that you will need to measure each time you load new ammo because the barrel erodes and the seating depth changes. Also measure when you change bullet lots.

The Alex Wheeler method followed precisely is probably the most accurate but the Stoney Point equipment will get you very close with practice.

 

[jepp2]

Measuring to the tip of the bullets by running a dowel in the barrel is not a very accurate method to determine the seating depth. I just randomly measured 10 Berger 6mm 105 VLD's from the same lot. The base to tip varied as much as .010. The base to ogive was no more than .001.

The measurement you need is base to ogive which is what touches the lands and you can't get that by touching a dowel to the tip of the bullet.

Not if you use dedicated bullets which you know the base to ogive and base to tip, which I do. Many ways to skin a cat.

 

[#40Fan]

Homerange's suggestion uses the dowel to measure. After doing his method, I'd suggest loading that bullet into a case at the measured COAL and then measure the CBTO.

 

[tmwinds]

The intent of the Dowel is to assist in retrieving the bullet that lodged in the lands not for measuring, I assume the OP understands that.

Read post #13, I said dowel, the post said cleaning rod but the same principal.

 

[mharpster]

Guys looking for some help here . I'm getting extremely frustrated trying to measure my seating depth to the lands with some 130berger vld. I have used the method where you seat bullet long and chamber round and take it out to measure no problems with lapua scenars. This is my first experience with vld bullets and everytime I do this the bullets are getting stuck in the lands!!!! I have seen Alex wheelers video and tried this as well but same issue bullets keep getting stuck. I have tried using a neck sized case and soft seating I have tried partially neck sizing a case so that there is only a bit of tension on bullet I have tried fired cases with no neck sizing all have the same result of stuck bullets!!

I'm starting to get worried about putting the cleaning rod down the barrel so much to remove stuck bullets that it's going to damage barrel. It's a 6.5x47l. I don't have the machine skills to make the custom case method for the hornady tool.

What can I do?? All I want is a base line touch length so I have a number to do some seating depth tests from.

Here is another option.
I have added some more illustrations of the LTL Gauge to help answer the question "how does this thing work?". People also ask "why is this better than the Hornady gauge or the stripped bolt method?" Here are some of the reasons;

• The brass is mechanically locked in the chamber instead of held by hand.
• The bullet stops against the lands by means of an adjustable clutch mechanism not by "feel" such as pushing on a rod or closing the bolt.
• Measurements are taken identically to your loaded ammo with the calipers centered and square to the case head.
• No bolt disassembly/reassembly or extractor modifications required.
• No need to repeatedly move the case from the rifle to the seating die.
• Consistency. Repeatability. Adjustability. Accuracy.

As always more information can be found on the Dead Center Sports website.
Thanks for your interest,
Mike

 

[Pigdog]

Homerange's suggestion uses the dowel to measure. After doing his method, I'd suggest loading that bullet into a case at the measured COAL and then measure the CBTO.

Yup this is exactly what I planned to do.

 

[Homerange]

Homerange's suggestion uses the dowel to measure. After doing his method, I'd suggest loading that bullet into a case at the measured COAL and then measure the CBTO.

Yes it's a very simple way to get you to some close reference point/measurement from which you have something to work with. Exact NO as others have mentioned the oglive measurement varies within production lots.
IMHO a dowel will not give as accurate results as a rod but additional thought needs be given to the type/brand of rod. Mine are all old Parker Hale types so have a male threaded end, big enough to bridge the firing pin hole and also properly contact the bullet tip.
It's just a KISS method with what I had on hand and good enough to get my hunting rifles to clover leaf or better @ 100.
Others requirements might be more precise.

 

[JimSC]

not a Benchrester here either but my 2 cents worth. My feeling is that if the OP is getting his bullets stuck they need to lighten up on the neck tension on the testing case.

It's best to start with only the first few thousandths of the neck getting sized the gradually increasing it until a sweet spot is reached. I back the bushing screw all the way out w/o a expander button in the die, full length size leaving the case fully inserted in the die. The I start tightening the bushing adjustment down, you will know when you hit the neck. Lower the press handle tighten the adjustment one turn and size the case. Remove it from the press and try and insert a bullet with your fingers. Seat the bullet and try and pull it out with your fingers. If you can push it in or pull it out then put the rezising die back in and screw the bushing adjustment down a half turn and resize. Keep doing this to the point you can no longer push the bullet in or pull the bullet with your fingers. That's the proper tension for finding the lands. You do not want to dig a groove into the jacket which would ruin the results anyway. Then as long as you don't hamfist the comparitor when measuring you can get a good baseline datum

I also like to use a little Imperial inside the neck and give case a pass with a Forster inside neck reamer before sizing to make sure the neck is consistent and no doughnuts are hiding. Many also recommend removing the ejector before chambering. Never had a bullet stick since I began doing this way.

Swapping in a bushing that only gives .001 compression might accomplish the same thing without all the tweaking, I might try that one day