Help w/ Win 296 in .357 mag

[LVLAaron]

I admittedly do not much experience reloading .357 mag.

Smith and Wesson R8 (5 inch barrel)

Using Hornady 125g XTP hollow point.
Winchester 296.
CCI Mag primer

Ambient temp - 38f

19.6 grain charge yielded ~1100 fps.

I expected more velocity based on Quickload and Hornady data.

I've heard that 296 can be tricky so I want to make sure I'm not doing something stupid.

 

[0.1 Aggregate]

1100 fps is very low velocity. The ambient temp is low, but I’ve used and seen used that powder at -25*F. Your load is below the minimum Hodgdon data (21.0 grains), you may be experiencing poor ignition due to low pressures. You should be applying a strong crimp.

When you say 1100 fps, how many shots? What was the extreme velocity spread? That information could help us diagnose the low average velocity.



.

 

[LVLAaron]

I had a good crimp. 6 shots, all ~1100FPS.

Hogdon load data scares me a little bit. Many of their starting loads are above max in other books. Here's what quickload says

21.5g would be 10k over max pressure. I dont wanna blow my face off.

Cartridge          : .357 Magnum (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .357, 125, Hornady HP/XTP 35710
Useable Case Capaci: 19.072 grain H2O = 1.238 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.590 inch = 40.39 mm
Barrel Length      : 5.0 inch = 127.0 mm
Powder             : Winchester 296 ?, Temperature: 40 °F

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   91    17.20   1226     417   20372   8587     52.8    0.577
-18.0   93    17.63   1267     446   21985   9050     54.5    0.557
-16.0   96    18.06   1309     476   23746   9523     56.2    0.537
-14.0   98    18.49   1352     507   25668  10006     57.9    0.516
-12.0  100    18.92   1396     541   27768  10498     59.6    0.496
-10.0  103    19.35   1441     576   30073  10998     61.4    0.477  ! Near Maximum !
-08.0  105    19.78   1487     614   32604  11505     63.2    0.458  ! Near Maximum !
-06.0  107    20.21   1535     654   35390  12017     64.9    0.440  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-04.0  109    20.64   1583     696   38464  12533     66.7    0.423  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.0  112    21.07   1633     740   41866  13052     68.5    0.406  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0  114    21.50   1684     787   45642  13572     70.3    0.389  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0  116    21.93   1736     837   49842  14089     72.0    0.373  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  118    22.36   1790     889   54507  14605     73.8    0.358  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0  121    22.79   1845     945   59724  15116     75.6    0.343  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0  123    23.22   1902    1004   65585  15617     77.3    0.328  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0  125    23.65   1960    1067   72203  16108     79.1    0.314  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

 

[JEFFPPC]

Get yourself some 2400.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Your load of 19.6 grain charge was 1100 fps, and your Quickload shows approximately 1450 fps with the same powder charge. Meaning your Quickload settings are off, you need to change the burn rate in Quickload until the velocity matches your chronograph.

Go with the Hodgdon's data, right now you are not getting accurate data from Quickload without tweaking the program. Your actual chronograph velocity is proof that Quickload is giving bad data.

 

[LA50SHOOTER]

I admittedly do not much experience reloading .357 mag.

Smith and Wesson R8 (5 inch barrel)

Using Hornady 125g XTP hollow point.
Winchester 296.
CCI Mag primer

Ambient temp - 38f

19.6 grain charge yielded ~1100 fps.

I expected more velocity based on Quickload and Hornady data.

I've heard that 296 can be tricky so I want to make sure I'm not doing something stupid.

@LVLAaron

My experience shows that W-296 is not the best powder for a 5" barrel in any revolver. - Win. 296 shines in longer barrels where it has an opportunity to fully burn and expend its energy.

I'm not saying you can't use Win-296 but as was mentioned Alliant 2400 and a few others such as Accurate No.9, Hodgdon Lil Gun would be what I'd recommend running with a 5" barrel in .357.

 

[SSE]

296 and h-110 are great in jacketed loads. 2400 maybe better with cast.
It is better to have several loading manuals and only use quickload for comparison.
Bump it up to 21 gr. You can do it in a couple of steps if you want and see how that works.
296 has a narrow optimum window.

 

[Uncle Ed]

When you have that much carbon on the outside of your cases the pressure did not seal the case in the cylinder. And your bottom case at 6:00 has unburnt powder residue inside the case.

 

[MikeT124]

The Hornady manual (10th edition - current) states you should be getting about 1450fps from that load as long as you are using a Frontier case, Winchester WSPM primers and a colt Python with an 8" barrel. Winchester primers are known as the hottest primers, so that can be part of the problem, I doubt the case would make much difference, but an 8" bbl will. So two out of three variables do not match. 350 fps difference is pretty large, I don't think I would push that load very much further by increasing the powder charge much at all. If you really want to push the envelope then use Power Pro 300-MP and you might get close to 1600 fps with a 20.4gr charge.

Mike

 

[jepp2]

I expected more velocity based on Quickload and Hornady data.

Couple things to keep in mind. First QL was designed and works best with bottle neck cartridges, not so well on straight wall handgun loads.

Second, W296 (and H-110 since they are the same powder) are not powders you want to load below the listed minimum load, period! If you desire to use these powders, heed the load advice. Most load manuals cover this pretty clearly.

Off my soapbox. I have found generally good correlation on QL with 357 mag loads using what I feel are much more appropriate powder. I shoot quite a bit of lead cast bullets, and once I learned I needed to up the pressure/velocity for hard cast lead, my leading disappeared. I used QL to develop my loads at the desired pressure/velocity.

I do use W296/H-110, but generally only in my 41 and 44 mags. Those have longer barrels and I shoot heavier bullets. As mentioned, for your load, just so many better powder choices out there. For years my favorite load with 125 gr bullets was Blue Dot. Even loved the smell of the burnt powder, then came Blue Dot warning not to use with the lighter bullets.

 

[LVLAaron]

Couple things to keep in mind. First QL was designed and works best with bottle neck cartridges, not so well on straight wall handgun loads.

Second, W296 (and H-110 since they are the same powder) are not powders you want to load below the listed minimum load, period! If you desire to use these powders, heed the load advice. Most load manuals cover this pretty clearly.

Off my soapbox. I have found generally good correlation on QL with 357 mag loads using what I feel are much more appropriate powder. I shoot quite a bit of lead cast bullets, and once I learned I needed to up the pressure/velocity for hard cast lead, my leading disappeared. I used QL to develop my loads at the desired pressure/velocity.

I do use W296/H-110, but generally only in my 41 and 44 mags. Those have longer barrels and I shoot heavier bullets. As mentioned, for your load, just so many better powder choices out there. For years my favorite load with 125 gr bullets was Blue Dot. Even loved the smell of the burnt powder, then came Blue Dot warning not to use with the lighter bullets.

The hornady data goes from 16.9 to 20.3 grains. That's why I loaded what I loaded. I understand your point and I'm not arguing, just sharing where I found the data.

 

[jepp2]

The hornady data goes from 16.9 to 20.3 grains. That's why I loaded what I loaded. I understand your point and I'm not arguing, just sharing where I found the data.

I didn't look in the Hornady load manual. This is what I found on the Hodgon online load data. Quite a bit of difference.

 

[LVLAaron]

I didn't look in the Hornady load manual. This is what I found on the Hodgon online load data. Quite a bit of difference.

Totally get it. Hodgdon data is known to be hot, and some of their 300 black out data will blow primers our of quality brass on the first firing with their minimum loads. I was just using the more cautious load data.


I'll save the 296 for when I pick up a Marlin lever gun.

I've got Shooters World Heavy Pistol (same burn rate as AA9) coming soon. Will give that a shot.


I'm not married to 296, but I have a bunch of it, and a bunch of new brass/bullets I wanted to find a good load for and run 1000 of them through my progressive during the cold months.

 

[AckleymanII]

I shoot two loads with 125's:

17.8g of IMR 4227

18.0g of H110 which is win 295

There maybe something wrong with your chronograph.

 

[Joe Wade]

W296 and H110 are some of the safest pistol powders to use in any of the magnum cases. With such a slow burn rate, the bullet leaves the barrel before all the powder can burn. I would not be afraid to work up to published velocities. Within reason. If you have a bunch of this powder, start reloading and enjoy. Works good with either magnum primers or standard primers. Magnums should work better in cold temps.
Dont recomend magnum primers with any of the faster burning pistol powders.
I recommend getting a Speer reloading manual, a great resource for magnum pistol cartidges.

 

[PopCharlie]

My S&W 686 with a 6 inch barrel shoots the 125 gr Hornady XTP at about 1300 fps with 18 gr w296 and cci 550 primer. I don't crimp, never have. Quite accurate too. This is one of my home defence loads. Used it for years.
This load came out of the next to last Hornady manual.
PopCharlie

 

[MagnumManiac]

Increase your powder charge and apply a heavy crimp.
296 is notorious for poor ignition if the start pressure isn’t high, a real heavy crimp helps with this.
I used to use it in a 357 6” Colt Python with either 125gr or 158gr pills and it required a max charge in both to not only get the desired velocity, but also get it to burn cleanly.
I still use 296 in my 44 Mag with a max load and heavy crimp and have zero problems with it.

Cheers.

 

[357Mag]

LVL -

Howdy !

You'll wanna use SP Magnum primers, fer sher..... when shooting loads w/ WW296 / H-110.

I've shot WW296 under 158SWCs for 4 decades. I use Remington 125JHPs for my self defense carry rounds. WW296 has worked great in my S & W "N" frames of 4, 5; and 6". I shoot a charge of 14.5gr WW296, which also shot well in my Marlin M1894SC.

Ballistican Homer Powley told us that once fired.... revolver powder charges are consumed within the chamber, as they are fast burning. Barrel lengths will influence how much expansion space the powder combustion gasses have prior to bullet exiting the bore ( excluding cylinder gap losses ).



With regards,
357Mag

 

[johnfred1965]

A lot of good info on W296 here. I shoot a 6 inch blackhawk with hodgdons reccomended load. as some have said, when you reduce that load you get uneven ingnition. Of course with the 21-22 grain load, you end up getting a flame thrower out the end of the barrel!! lol. but you do get a good burn and higher velocities. I prefer the 140 XTP when hunting, but you should be able to get the 125s really smokin. Notice though that the barrel used in hodgdons tests was 10 inches, BIG difference.

 

[Tommie]

My experience with W296 (H110) -
Lighter bullets are generally not the best pairing with this powder. Fire balls and low/erratic velocities are typical. I’d either switch to bullets in the 150+ grain range or try a powder with a quicker burn rate.