Help trying to turn necks

[Fliers]

I have some twice fired factory Federal brass I'm trying to turn. (6.5 Creedmoor) I bought a FL bushing die originally, but read I needed a regular FL die to turn, so I got the Hornady.

After FL sizing, the outside neck is .2845, after I run it through my .264 gage pin, The outside is .292.
That's quite a jump in one go.
It appears it's leaving a donut after the expansion right at the inside junction of the neck/shoulder. My K&M turning pilot is .2633 (ish) maybe .2632.

I think the final inside is about .2635+, since the turning pilot will go into the top, but a new bullet will just start with pressure, but will then not come out without a puller.

It won't go past the donut. I've tried running it though the .264 gage pin a few more times, you can feel the donut and it resists going through it, but it just springs back after I remove it.

I can get a larger gage pin. .2645? (I understand the actual K&M expander is exactly .264 as well)
Or, I can try using an intermediate expander size first so it's not such a large jump to prevent the donut?
Or, I can get a reamer and cut out the donut.
Or, I can use my bushing sizer initially, lightly turn, then FL size and finish it?(Don't think this will actually help)

Any and all help appreciated!

 

[MN50Shooter]

Take a look at this Carbide Cutting Pilot by K&M. It will cut the doughnut. https://kmshooting.com/neck-turning-tools/neck-turners/pilots/carbide-cutting-pilots.html

To help prevent the doughnut from forming, I slightly cut into the junction where the neck and shoulder meet, when turning my necks. I have not had a doughnut form in any of my brass, ranging from .243 thru 50 BMG. I still utilize the Carbide Pilots, as I've found they work better, for my needs.

Hope this helps

 

[Fliers]

Thanks... although, it seems like the donut is being formed during the sizing process on the neck. I just tried annealing right before sizing and it did appear to help some, but it's still there.
These have only been fired twice, so I wouldn't expect a donut that fast anyway?
I can't even get them on the pilot, so I can't yet cut into the neck.

Also, I just checked, and it appears that neither my RCBS gold medal bushing die nor the new Hornady FL set all the way down to contact the plate (Dillon 650) is actually bumping the shoulder back at all checking with comparator. These Federal cases are not seating all the way into the Hornady no-go gage checker after sizing. Would that cause donuts?

Edit: Was able to get should bump by screwing past touch on the shell plate. Too much 'give' I guess on the 650.

Still has the donut after the Hordady FL resize... the RCBS doesn't do it.

 

[nso123]

Are you using the expander ball in the die to expand, or are you using a separate mandrel to expand?

 

[243winxb]

Use the Horhady standard fl die with expander. Size.

Run the K&M expander into the case neck. Its larger in diameter then the turning *mandrel.

Now neck turn. If the turning *mandrel is to tight, order a different/larger K&M expander *mandrel.

Load and fire. Now use the fl bushing die .

Edit spelling *mandrel

 

[Willie]

I would suggest you measure your fired cases and compare to your resized cases. Measure diameter of case near shoulder and .200" from base. I won't use Federal brass for reloading and suggest there are many better options for Creedmoor brass. It might be better to start with turning new brass of better quality.

After you measure some cases, before and after sizing, you will know how much your die is sizing rounds fired in your chamber. My guess is that it's excessive.

 

[Fliers]

Sorry, was not able to get back to this thread yesterday.
I'm using a separate expander (chamferred gage pins). I am not using an expander in the die.

I have a few sizes, and I'm using the largested at .264, which I'm assuming now, is the same size K&M uses. It would work if not for the donut, the turning pilot fits down the neck perfect, until it hits the donut.

I was surprised the turning pilot was .2632 (ish).. I was originally expecting .262 on the pilot, and .263 for the expander.
However, I found a thread where somebody else said the various manufacturers are fairly inconsistent on these sizes for expander/turning pairs.

I have a .2645 on order, should get here Tuesday. I didn't originally think I would need one that large, or, that I would see donuts in the necks this early in the process on factory 6.5CM brass. It won't fix the donut, but may allow a neck turn.

I'm experimenting with the Federals, although, I do have a decent load worked up on them. I have a bunch of factory Hornady brass as well as 100 Alpha brass I ordered, but wanted to learn on the Federals first.

I've been loading with the RCBS bushing die, but bought the FL sizer since I read it needed it for turning (consistent all the way to the shoulder). I just wasn't expecting to deal with this donut this early (2 firings), so I was afraid I was doing something wrong.

I've also ordered the cutting carbine pilot from K&M, which should solve this problem fully ( I hope).. assuming It's not due to me messing something else up.

Thanks, Mike

 

[smoooth]

Curious as to why you are bothering turning necks?
You’re using brass that (presumably) was fired in your chamber.

I used to turn necks for a tight necked
6mm-284Win; quite frankly, it’s a pain in neck! Pun intended, but much stronger words would be more appropriate.

You have to be a darn good shooter to notice any difference and the farther the distance, the less difference you’ll notice, unless you’re a great wind reader, too.

 

[Fliers]

I was hoping it would help with a consistent neck tension and reduce my ES. Also, I assume that once turned, a simple neck bushing would give me consistent necks without the extra step of expander step. I've read a lot of debate on turning necks, but several people with lots more experience than me said it would improve ES.

And.. I thought the further out you went.. the more you would notice.
ES differences would show up more at distance. I'm shooting out to 1100 yards.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Dont worry about a donut unless the cops are sweating you. Seat your bullet above the donut. If you cant then have your barrel throated. Once you let donut concern into your life itll consume you- just like sorting bullets, annealing, cleaning brass, concentricity and everything else that keeps you from enjoying shooting.

 

[Fliers]

At the moment, I enjoy the prep-work as well as the shooting. It may get old, but I only need to turn the brass once.
My problem isn't bullet seating, it's that I can't turn the necks with the donut in there.... which seems to only have formed from a standard FL size. (I'll need to verify this, maybe I just didn't notice till I tried to turn).
I'll watch that video tonight... I'm already using a bullet puller die with gage-pin chamferred. Your other thread with the custom collet looks awesome. I may order one if I notice concentricity issues with my setup.

 

[JFrank]

I have some twice fired factory Federal brass I'm trying to turn. (6.5 Creedmoor) I bought a FL bushing die originally, but read I needed a regular FL die to turn, so I got the Hornady.

After FL sizing, the outside neck is .2845, after I run it through my .264 gage pin, The outside is .292.
That's quite a jump in one go.
It appears it's leaving a donut after the expansion right at the inside junction of the neck/shoulder. My K&M turning pilot is .2633 (ish) maybe .2632.

I think the final inside is about .2635+, since the turning pilot will go into the top, but a new bullet will just start with pressure, but will then not come out without a puller.

It won't go past the donut. I've tried running it though the .264 gage pin a few more times, you can feel the donut and it resists going through it, but it just springs back after I remove it.

I can get a larger gage pin. .2645? (I understand the actual K&M expander is exactly .264 as well)
Or, I can try using an intermediate expander size first so it's not such a large jump to prevent the donut?
Or, I can get a reamer and cut out the donut.
Or, I can use my bushing sizer initially, lightly turn, then FL size and finish it?(Don't think this will actually help)

Any and all help appreciated!

IM limited E dies that use expander balls always seem to overwork the brass, especially at the neck area.

Have you ever made /worked pie dough with a rolling pin ?

I no longer use those Dies and I no longer have those problems.
Your methods and results may vary, I certainly hope you get rid of those pesky doughnuts.

 

[Fliers]

I removed the expander ball, so I'm only sizing down. It's pretty big neck shrink from .292+ to .2845, but I thought donuts only formed from shooting, not sizing.

I'm not sure where this donut is coming from after just 2 firings. I hope removing a ton of brass with the reamer, then fire expanding/normal bush sizing going forward doesn't leave a weak spot on the neck.

I also need to figure out why after sizing, they won't fully seat into my hornady case gauge, but it does chamber in the rifle.

 

[JFrank]

What discipline are you shooting?
Do you have chamber that is undersized requiring turned necks?

 

[Fliers]

Right now, I'm using a factory RPR. I'm currently only shooting myself out to 1100yards, but would like to get into competitions eventually.
So, mainly, I'm just learning to load very consistent rounds with very low ES. I'm seeing pretty high ES on the Federal, and good ES on the Alpha, but with occasional outlier.

I understand Federal isn't very good brass, but I'm learning, and seeing if I can make it any better. I also have read several opinions that turning with worthless without a custom/tight chamber, but I've also read from others that have experienced reduced ES in factory barrels as well. It may not help, but I want to learn, and don't mind wasting time at this point to see.

 

[JFrank]

I’ll probably get torched for this

I’ve not met one serious successful competitor at any match that uses Hornday dies, all are custom or semi custom.

 

[Fliers]

Well, I'm only using the Hornady to try to full-length size for turning the neck. I'm using RCBS gold medal bushing die for actual reloading. Perhaps down the road, I'll get a custom die made, but right now, I'm just trying to figure out this neck turning process. We'll see when I get the cutting pilots later this week.

Thanks everybody.

 

[hammerjack]

You could find a mentor to help you out ; maybe buy some real brass ( Lapua ) and learn how to neck turn it before the donut
gets formed. You should not form any donuts if you keep the bullet seated above the neck shoulder junction like Dusty
stated above. If it does form them it needs to be throated out which sounds like a different thread.

 

[Rodney]

I think I get what you’re doing fliers. Learning the process of neck turning on inexpensive brass is how I learned, but I just wanted to clean up the necks, you’re doing it to remove donuts. The k&m carbide cutter mandrel will fix you right up. You’re necks will be straight and donut free because you’re cutting both sides at the same time. Cleaning up necks on any brass can’t be a bad thing.

 

[Willie]

Just my experience, but the inside cutter mandrel can do some serious damage to the case neck, while reaming out a donut. I have found it easier to make repeated passes with a FL die, expander ball in, or a mandrel die. Generally, they will push the donut to the outside, where it can be turned off. Verify with the proper pin gauge, to make sure the donut is gone.

Of course, if you NEED to turn for proper clearance, turn the necks on new brass, getting into the shoulder to delay any future donut. Even if you're skim turning a bit, get into the shoulder. The difference, between chamber and die, will determine if the problem appears again.