Help setting up dies

[Sigfla]

Hello all. I am a soon to be noob handloader once all my gear arrives in the mail. I have been reading and watching every youtube video I can find. I bought a Redding turret press and will be using a 3 die set from Redding with competition shell holders. My primary source of confusion comes from setting up the dies and whether or not to "cam over."

My thoughts were with the competition shell holder set I would be better off setting up my body die w/out any cam over using the thinnest (less brass working) shell holder first. I would then set up my headspace using my body die and the competition shell holder set per this video from Jeff B at Longrangeonly.com

. I should then in theory have the right amount of tension on my body die with the proper size shell holder w/out having added any additional cam over during setup of the die?

I could then set up my seating and neck die with a very slight to no cam over using the shell holder determined previously. OR I could perform each operation separately and adjust cam tension using the shell holder kit as needed during the bullet seating or neck sizing stages.

It seems like setting up your body die and shell holder first, then finding the correct amount of cam tension for neck sizing and bullet seating using the same shell holder is the way to go. As I said I am just getting started but want to avoid as many initial setup hassles as I can. I assume you don't need any to very little cam over in the seating and neck sizing stages.

 

[MagnumManiac]

When your dies arrive, they have extensive directions to adjust your dies correctly, in a ball park way.
The simplest way, is to fire some rounds first, factory ammo is fine.
Take the firing pin out of the bolt, and screw the die, body or FL, in until it TOUCHES the shell holder with the ram all the way up. Now, back it off a full turn. Lube and size a case, clean it, chamber it, it should be tight.
Now, using only the same piece of brass twice, turn the die in 1/12 of a turn at a time until the bolt just drops on a case. No one can say if the press will be camming over doing this. It is just trial and error.
To make 1/12 turns, take liquid paper, or a paint marker, and draw a reference line on your press, then mark the 6 corners of the lock ring, and halfway between those points, there's your 12 sets to work off.

Hope this gets you there.

Cheers.

 

[6MMsteve]

what he said Camover is not always the case, shoulder is where it's at and camover doesn't really matter. You may camover to get the right shoulder setting

 

[Sigfla]

When your dies arrive, they have extensive directions to adjust your dies correctly, in a ball park way.
The simplest way, is to fire some rounds first, factory ammo is fine.
Take the firing pin out of the bolt, and screw the die, body or FL, in until it TOUCHES the shell holder with the ram all the way up. Now, back it off a full turn. Lube and size a case, clean it, chamber it, it should be tight.
Now, using only the same piece of brass twice, turn the die in 1/12 of a turn at a time until the bolt just drops on a case. No one can say if the press will be camming over doing this. It is just trial and error.
To make 1/12 turns, take liquid paper, or a paint marker, and draw a reference line on your press, then mark the 6 corners of the lock ring, and halfway between those points, there's your 12 sets to work off.

Hope this gets you there.

Cheers.

I think I am following you but since I have the competition shell holder set I thought I wouldn't need to adjust the die in 12th's. I would just keep trying different shell holder sizes till I got the bump I needed. In the end I guess I should just perform this process to find the shell holder I need then adjust the seating and neck sizing dies per the normal process in the instructions.

 

[Sheldon N]

I'm of the opinion you want the press to cam over at the end of the stroke for every operation, sizing, seating, etc. If the press stops because of interference with the die at the top of the stroke, then you are relying on resistance and the amount of force you apply to determine how much the press/die interact... and that could lead to inconsistencies based upon your technique. If you back the die out to the point where the correct sizing happens at cam over then you don't have to rely on pressure to determine the end result.

I use a lock ring on my dies to set position, and make adjustments to sizing by loosening the lock ring, adjusting it against a reference mark on the die, and checking the result. Once you've got it set, then you are done. Screw the die into the press and go to work. The lock rings made by Hornady are nice, and only $4 ea. They sell a 6 pack as well.

I've personally not seen the need for the shellholder set. It might be handy if you had two different rifles of the same caliber that needed to share a set of dies and they had different headspace. Otherwise IMO it's better to just use a standard shellholder.

Additionally, you want a set of measuring tools so that you can compare the amount of shoulder set back that happens during sizing. The Hornady comparator tool set is well worth buying, the OAL tool for finding the distance to your lands, plus the bullet and headspace comparator tools. One thing to keep in mind with the "feel" operation shown above is that it doesn't tell you where on the case the chamber is tight. You might be setting your shoulders back too much, but the case feels tight because the base of the case is not getting sized enough. You want to measure all the potential points of sizing against a reference fired case. How much is the base being sized? How much is the body diameter below the shoulder being sized? How far back are the shoulders being pushed (using the comparator tool)? Yes, you want the end result to be an easily chambered case, but you also want to know what's happening and how you got there. Ideally the case should chamber smoothly at around the point where the shoulders have been pushed back 0.002", assuming that your die and your chamber are a good fit.

Once you get that dialed, set your lock ring on your die and you basically don't need to touch it again. There may be some subtle changes in sizing over time due to brass hardening/spring back, which can be mitigated by annealing, but generally it's set it and forget it.

Personally I think this video is the best illustration of how to set case headspace... a combination of tools/measurements plus feel. Note that he also pulls the ejector spring/pin from the bolt so there's no resistance at all.

 

[ireload2]

Sheldon gave good advice. You main goal is to get the FL die set so the shoulder is in the exact right spot. That can be tedious but is very worth while in improved case life and accuracy. For me that right spot is just barely dragging on the stripped bolt when it is closed. This minimizes case stretching and at the same time prevents galling of the locking lugs from excessive bolt closing force.

However you do need a tool to help set up your die and to monitor your sizing technique.
If you check a lot of cases you will find that the speed of sizing, the dwell time at the top of the stroke, the amount of lube used and other almost imperceptible changes in your sizing motion from one case to another can cause your shoulder position to vary about .002. To detect these changes you need to measure each and every case immediately after you size it. You will find there is some variation and you may have to size a case several times to get the shoulder pushed back to where it belongs.

 

[Sigfla]

Thanks. I did order a comparator tool and was planning on using both as well. The video Sheldon posted helped me understand the "zero point" Jeff B described. This video appears to describe the die setup process Sheldon described at 10:42.

Is this the recommended procedure?

 

[Sheldon N]

Yes, that's how I do it using the lock ring to index die position. When fine tuning you move the lock ring a little bit, then reset the die in the press, size a few cases and take a few measurements, etc. I also combine that with checking how the sized cases fit into the chamber with a stripped down bolt.

 

[Sigfla]

Thanks. so many different approaches on youtube. Gunwerks just screws the sizer down snug and goes, lol...

 

['Freak]

Getting “cam over” simply means that the die has been adjusted down to the point of contact with the shellholder on a fully extended ram, and then it’s turned in some fraction of a turn more. As the press ram is extended, the shellholder first contacts the base of the die while the ram is still just a tad short of full extension, continued shoving on the press handle takes up whatever play exists in the press’s linkage betwixt the handle and ram, and right as the ram reaches full extension, the geometry of linkage causes it to toggle or cam “over center”, aka press “cam over”.


Redding’s Competition Shellholder is a quick and easy way to limit how much of the case’s length is allowed to enter the die body, working in .002” increments, once the press ram is fully extended. I use ‘em, and they do what they are supposed to do, nutin less or more.


Exactly one full turn of a 14 threads per inch die is going to move that die (1/14)” or .071”, and a whole lot more than is necessary to ensure that the case’s shoulder is not going to come into contact with the shoulder in the die. A quarter turn of the die will move the die in or out the press (1/14)” x (1/ 4) or .018” and a plenty enough to ensure no die contact with the case shoulder. Exactly a sixteenth of a turn, or (1/14) x (1/16), moves the die in or out very near exactly .0045”, and do same every time. If you want .001”, you gotta turn that die very near exactly 1/72 of a full turn (1/14)(1/72) or .00099”, and it’ll move it .001” every time.

 

[Sigfla]

Thanks again. Trying to learn as much as I can while I am waiting on my equipment. Its tough to visualize without a ram and all the accessories around to play with but between youtube and the forums its helpful to get an idea of how things work.

I wonder why a Die manufacturer doesn't produce an indexed die that has hash marks etched into it in some way.

 

[BillPa]

Redding’s Competition Shellholder is a quick and easy way to limit how much of the case’s length is allowed to enter the die body, working in .002” increments, once the press ram is fully extended. I use ‘em, and they do what they are supposed to do, nutin less or more.

I use die shims. I'll initially setup the die with a .120" shellholder and a .006" shim under the lock ring. If in the event I want or need .001" more or less bump I'll simply exchange the .006" with a .005" or .007" to lower or raise the die in relationship to the floor of the shellholder, no need to readjust the die from it's initial setting.
http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...es/skip-s-die-shim-kit-7-8-14--prod33197.aspx
Bill

 

[jepp2]

I wonder why a Die manufacturer doesn't produce an indexed die that has hash marks etched into it in some way.

As an alternative you can use this to print out your own index for your dies. Show how little movement 0.001" is. This was developed by Unclenick on TFL forum and is being used with his permission. The adobe file is attached.

[URL=http://s860.photobucket.com/user/jepp2/media/DieAdjustment.jpg.html][/URL]

 

['Freak]

I wonder why a Die manufacturer doesn't produce an indexed die that has hash marks etched into it in some way.

As an alternative you can use this to print out your own index for your dies. Show how little movement 0.001" is. This was developed by Unclenick on TFL forum and is being used with his permission. The adobe file is attached.

[URL='http://s860.photobucket.com/user/jepp2/media/DieAdjustment.jpg.html'][/URL]

Fine point Sharpie, 6” Starrett 16R steel rule, and a cheap calculator with Pi function key.
Pi times the diameter of whatever, and divide by 72.
Pi(7/8) / 72= .038179077”
Pi(7/8)(1/72)= .038”

 

[Shaggy357]

Best response was one of the first.....IMHO....

Now, using only the same piece of brass twice, turn the die in 1/12 of a turn at a time until the bolt just drops on a case. No one can say if the press will be camming over doing this. It is just trial and error.

The absolute best gauge in setting up your die, is the chamber in your gun. Setting up press to cam over point, or per the measurements on a caliper means nothing if the brass case doesn't fit your gun. Once you have fired brass and have done initial set up you can do some fine tuning for accuracy because you have measurements from brass formed in your chamber and can measure what happens in your sizing die.


Steve

 

[Webster]

When your dies arrive, they have extensive directions to adjust your dies correctly, in a ball park way.
The simplest way, is to fire some rounds first, factory ammo is fine.
Take the firing pin out of the bolt, and screw the die, body or FL, in until it TOUCHES the shell holder with the ram all the way up. Now, back it off a full turn. Lube and size a case, clean it, chamber it, it should be tight.
Now, using only the same piece of brass twice, turn the die in 1/12 of a turn at a time until the bolt just drops on a case. No one can say if the press will be camming over doing this. It is just trial and error.
To make 1/12 turns, take liquid paper, or a paint marker, and draw a reference line on your press, then mark the 6 corners of the lock ring, and halfway between those points, there's your 12 sets to work off.

Hope this gets you there.

Cheers.

Agree this is the best way to do it. It's the method Tony Boyer recommends. Cam over has nothing to do with properly sizing cases. It's just forcing the linkage past a certain point.

 

[drano38]

A few years ago when I was doing more IBS 600 yard shooting, I was talking to the original owner of K&M products, and his opinion was we want enough cam over to stress the press more than the resizing force to help with consistent setback. He said all presses flex a bit (even a Rock Chucker or Redding Big Boss). So he recommended the Redding Competition shell holder set. Adjust die height for cam over, then select a shell holder for shoulder set back. Made sense to me, so I bought a set for my Dasher, and have been using them ever since. And it does seem like I get more consistent shoulder set back. Next is a home made annealer, which will help even more.

 

[Webster]

A few years ago when I was doing more IBS 600 yard shooting, I was talking to the original owner of K&M products, and his opinion was we want enough cam over to stress the press more than the resizing force to help with consistent setback. He said all presses flex a bit (even a Rock Chucker or Redding Big Boss). So he recommended the Redding Competition shell holder set. Adjust die height for cam over, then select a shell holder for shoulder set back. Made sense to me, so I bought a set for my Dasher, and have been using them ever since. And it does seem like I get more consistent shoulder set back. Next is a home made annealer, which will help even more.

I don't know if I am missing something. If the case is shoved into the die the proper amount what difference does it matter if the press flexes a little. Sounds like nonsense to me. The yield strength of cast iron must be around 50,000 lbs per square inch.

Added later:
Just sized and loaded some 6BR cases. I'm using less than 5 lbs. pressure on the press handle to size the cases. How can the press frame possibly be flexed. Look how thick the press frame is. Over camming adds unnecessary force and doesn't accomplish anything. If anything over camming is hard on the linkage. Just looked at the J B video. I got my dies properly adjusted by rotating up or down. I didn't run out of thread adjustment to the point I needed a selection of shell holders. The most shoulder push back would be with the die against the shell holder. You can always get less push back by rotating the die back a little, that's all a selection of shell holders is doing. A shorter shell holder, you can push the case a little farther into the die. You should be able to accomplish what he is doing by adjusting the die. I still don't believe in over camming. I don't understand his theory that the press flexes and some correction is needed.