Help reading primers

[Rsadams]

I have some 450 magnum primers but not sure how much to change the load to use them. The only loads I found for using the magnum primers was Benchmark powder and while it shoots good I get better results with the 8208 and 4166.
I have the Hornady 68gr HPBT match bullets and they are more consistent length than the 69gr Sierra's they are also longer and make the loads hotter. The Sierra bullets vary in length by as much as .007 maybe I got a weird batch?

The Sierra manual has some load data for magnum primers , don't know of any other... Honestly I don't worry much about it... I know the load I use is not to hot and I have a bunch of them so I use them... Let your target and crono tell you what's working , a hot load is not necessarily going to be accurate... There's alot of things that can determine max charge , barrel length , bearing surface on bullets , outside temps , it's 108 here right now and I don't shoot in the dog days of summer so I would say my cold weather load would be screaming hot right now , plus the barrels never cool down and neither do I...

 

[Rsadams]

I have heard this hearsay a lot, but I have NEVER seen this in ~10000 reloads of my own, and thousands more witnessed using regular small rifle primers. If you run an AR until it's so dirty that the firing pin doesn't freely move, then maybe...

I also have never had it happen , but I also take precautions when shooting my reloads with the soft primers... Now on the other hand I have an sks that dents them everytime pretty good , I wouldn't chamber a round in it anywhere except when pointed in a safe direction , although it's never actually set one off but it does dent them hard... I keep my ARs clean and mine doesn't dent primers but my friends does...

 

[Texas10]

I have heard this hearsay a lot, but I have NEVER seen this in ~10000 reloads of my own, and thousands more witnessed using regular small rifle primers. If you run an AR until it's so dirty that the firing pin doesn't freely move, then maybe...

Maybe your good fortune is attributable to your above average maintaining of your weapons. Fortunately, you are not a high volume commercial ammo producer. Would you do it differently if you were? I have little doubt. One slam fire with disastrous consequences and you'd be outta business faster than your lawyer could say the words bankruptcy court. So a mag primer becomes pretty cheap insurance. Gotta be based on something. Just say'n.

 

[Deleted old_dood]

You need to have your bolt fixed. Firing pin hole is too large in relation to the firing pin call gre-tan

+1. or Grimstod on this forum. You'll likely get it back faster and a little less expensive than Gre-Tan.

 

[Nick Caprinolo]

Lake City is great brass, however it is not .223 brass and it is designated .556. There is a reason for that. The case wall of the LC brass is thicker which results in less interior space and develops higher pressures, for the same powder loads than .233 commercial brass made for the .223 civilian caliber. Most good reloading manuals will discuss this and offer two different sections,one for each caliber.

 

[chop house]

The cratering problem on your Savage could be caused by a poor firing pin fit to the bolt head.

my savage does the same. all the time. fixed it by going to br-4's. thicker cup as has been said.

 

[Lefty Trigger]

Lake City is great brass, however it is not .223 brass and it is designated .556. There is a reason for that. The case wall of the LC brass is thicker which results in less interior space and develops higher pressures, for the same powder loads than .233 commercial brass made for the .223 civilian caliber. Most good reloading manuals will discuss this and offer two different sections,one for each caliber.

I thought that you might be on to something with this so I made a new batch and used Remington 223 brass and got the exact same results, blown primer pin hole. Going to take the bolt apart and check the firing pin and hole size to see if there might be an issue there. If there is I'll contact Savage and see how they will handle it.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I thought that you might be on to something with this so I made a new batch and used Remington 223 brass and got the exact same results, blown primer pin hole. Going to take the bolt apart and check the firing pin and hole size to see if there might be an issue there. If there is I'll contact Savage and see how they will handle it.

Lefty - as other have mentioned there are a couple of things going on here. First is the relatively thin cup on the CCI 400 primers. The second is the Savage firing pin hole size. Switch to the 450s or Fed 205s and your primer issues will likely disappear, unless you're running very hot loads, in which case you may need to have a bushing installed in the firing pin hole (https://www.gretanrifles.com/). I've known several guys that were shooting "medium" loads in .223 that simply switched from the CCI 400s to a different primer and all their problems vanished. If you're pushing things a little harder as in competition loads with 80-90 gr bullets, the bushing approach may be necessary as well.

 

[Lefty Trigger]

Lefty - as other have mentioned there are a couple of things going on here. First is the relatively thin cup on the CCI 400 primers. The second is the Savage firing pin hole size. Switch to the 450s or Fed 205s and your primer issues will likely disappear, unless you're running very hot loads, in which case you may need to have a bushing installed in the firing pin hole (https://www.gretanrifles.com/). I've known several guys that were shooting "medium" loads in .223 that simply switched from the CCI 400s to a different primer and all their problems vanished. If you're pushing things a little harder as in competition loads with 80-90 gr bullets, the bushing approach may be necessary as well.

I have about 400 of these CCI primer left then going to try something different. I can get Remington and Federal pretty easily. Could be like you and others have said soft cup primers. To me the firing pin hole appears to be ok and not overly large. I'm going to take the bolt apart and gauge the hole with my pin gauge set and see.

 

[HillBilly98]

I hope this is in line with the thread. I have been reloading and shooting for some time now. I have never been real comfortable pushing pressure to the limits. I’m in no way saying the pictures show that, rather stating that I have never felt 100 percent in MY abilities to interpret the signs on the high end. For that reason and the fact that my cases last longer I load at best mediocre I have never loaded hot. It’s out of fear and my own ignorance. I never really felt it was much hindrance with hunting loads or even in the little bit of silhouette shooting that I have done. But I do think in certain calibers I have sold my self short on the performance. I would someday love to shoot at least one f class match in life before I get too old. I would be tickled to show up and finish last. I realize you have to push a little hotter for that type of competition.

All of that said in my working career I have always liked to stick to imperical data. Back a few years ago I think it was Ohler had a ballistics lab that had transducers that would stick on above the chamber. This would allow a more precise way of measuring pressure. Is anyone aware of any equipment out there like that today? Something that would take out guess work. Again I know that a lot of you out there have a lot better abilities then I do but wish I had something that I could watch case/primer signs and compare to real data. I seriously only have one good eye left.

 

[divingin]

Lake City is great brass, however it is not .223 brass and it is designated .556. There is a reason for that. The case wall of the LC brass is thicker which results in less interior space and develops higher pressures, for the same powder loads than .233 commercial brass made for the .223 civilian caliber. Most good reloading manuals will discuss this and offer two different sections,one for each caliber.

True for the LC .308/7.62x51 brass, not so much for 223.

In my experience, LC 5.56 is about the same weight and thickness as most commercial 223/5.56 brass.

 

[Nick Caprinolo]

True for the LC .308/7.62x51 brass, not so much for 223.

In my experience, LC 5.56 is about the same weight and thickness as most commercial 223/5.56 brass.

All I can tell you is that every loading data book I have ever read, has separate sections for 5.56 and 223. Wonder why they do that? Further there is usually a caution not to fire 5.56 rounds in 223 actions. That is why they developed the WYLDE chamber.

 

[ericbc7]

Primers look good, please notice how the shells reload. If new primers go in easy then you are looking at high pressures.

 

[Lefty Trigger]

All I can tell you is that every loading data book I have ever read, has separate sections for 5.56 and 223. Wonder why they do that? Further there is usually a caution not to fire 5.56 rounds in 223 actions. That is why they developed the WYLDE chamber.

There is merit in what you said and I have pulled all my Lake City brass from the reloading room and will most likely sell it on to someone with an AR. Some of our local club matches are now checking ammo to make sure people are not using 5.56 ammo in .223's for safety reasons, so it best my brass has the 223 REM stamp on it anyway.

 

[riflewoman]

Some of our local club matches are now checking ammo to make sure people are not using 5.56 ammo in .223's for safety reasons, so it best my brass has the 223 REM stamp on it anyway.

And who in the hell appointed these bozos to be “the ammo police”? I presume You allow handloaded ammo and now you care about what the headstamp reads? Sheesh!

 

[divingin]

All I can tell you is that every loading data book I have ever read, has separate sections for 5.56 and 223. Wonder why they do that? Further there is usually a caution not to fire 5.56 rounds in 223 actions. That is why they developed the WYLDE chamber.

Has nothing to do with the brass thickness. That has to do with varying throat lengths and pressure maximums.

https://www.americanweaponscomponents.com/clearing-the-caliber-confusion-223-wylde-vs-5-56-nato

 

[mike06]

Lefty for what it's worth Benchmark has given me the best results in every 223 I have as in 5 of them 2 rem 700's and 3 AR15's Start at 22.5 grains to 23.7 with a 69 gr SMK or Nosler Custom Comp. Coal 2.250 to 2.260 mag length and i just let them jump. CCI BR4 Fed,Lapua or LC I do anneal and neck size with a .002 neck squeeze for the bolt rifles. I try to maintain .002 head space at the most. Benchmark works well in any temps. I also use it with 55,60,64,68, 70 and 75 grain bullets bt I like the 69's the best in my 1-8 and 1-9 rifles.

 

[Uncle Ed]

All I can tell you is that every loading data book I have ever read, has separate sections for 5.56 and 223. Wonder why they do that? Further there is usually a caution not to fire 5.56 rounds in 223 actions. That is why they developed the WYLDE chamber.

The difference is not the case capacity for the .223 and 5.56, the difference is the throat length and port pressure. It is the 1in12 and 1in14 twist barrels with the shorter .0250 freebore that makes the difference in .223 loading data. That being said my Savage .223 with a 1in9 twist has a throat longer than my AR15 rifles at .0566.

Below from our Accurate Shooter main page.

And the newer Lake City 7.62 cases use harder and not thicker brass and now their case capacity is the same or slightly more than commercial cases. Trust me, I buy bulk once fired 5.56 and 7.62 Lake City cases and they are more uniform and a higher quality than Remington or Winchester.

Also the CCI 400 primer like the Remington 6 1/2 primers are thinner and made for lower pressure cartridges like the 22 Hornet.