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Help deciding... ftr 223

BW

Silver $$ Contributor
Im going to rebarrel my rem 700 223ai soon and am looking to chamber it back to straight 223 for local mid range ftr shooting, mainly 600 yards. I have a 1&7 29" Bartlein blank already on hand and want to order the reamer soon. I cannot decide for the life of me what route to go. Do I go full on 90gr (.169fb) reamer or go with a reamer more suited towards the 80gr class bullets. All opinions and first hand experience would be greatly appreciated.
 
I have used .169 freebore reamer and have loads for both 80 and 90vld and no issues on either one. 90's can be tricky to figure out but when you do get it right, lights out! A lot good advice on previous posts.
 
A 28" barrel will limit you to a slower accuracy node if using the 90s due to pressure reasons. Even with a 30" barrel, brass life is poor using a powder such as H4895, although you can get very good velocity/precision with it. There is nothing wrong with running a slower node; your brass life will certainly be better.

However, you'll be giving up some performance due to the slower velocity. At ~2840-2860 fps, the Berger 90 VLD will be on very equal footing with most 185 Juggernaut .308 loads out to 1000 yd. In that scenario, the advantage of the .223 is almost a total lack of felt recoil and ridiculously good precision. If you give up a fair bit of velocity due to excessive pressure with the shorter barrel, you won't be getting quite the performance that would be possible out of a fairly typical .308/185 load. Not a big deal, just something to be aware of. With a little effort and diligence, the precision should still be outstanding.

Using the 0.169 fb chamber, you can still load the Berger 80.5 gr or 82 gr bullets. They'll be seated out fairly long, but it's doable. In contrast, the reverse (i.e. trying to seat/load a 90 VLD bullet in a chamber with a freebore optimized for an 80-something gr bullet) is not something I would recommend. Not saying you could't do it, but it would really be sub-optimal for the 90s. With the longer freebore, you can develop loads that are optimal for either weight class of bullets.
 
You guys addressed one of my main concerns with the .169fb reamer. Which was, if I wasn't able to get the 90s to shoot as good as I'd like would I still be able to run the 80 somethings. I bought this barrel before i was really contemplating going the 90gr route. You guy's think it would be worth selling or maybe just keeping this barrel for something later and try to get one that finishes 30" to 31".
 
If doing so isn't a major hardship because you already have the other barrel, a 30" M24 contour barrel should allow you to make weight with little issue and allow you to reach respectable velocity with Varget (~2820-ish fps), or H4895 (~2850-ish fps). H4895 will be harder on the brass than Varget, I'm getting about 3-4 reloads at 2850 fps with H4895 before a significant portion (although not all) of the primer pockets start going. Either way will give you an awesome setup for midrange F-TR, a very good combination of precision, low recoil, and resistance to wind deflection that is comparable to a .308 running 185s.
 
I shoot a 28" 1:7 barrel with the Kiff ISSF .169 freebore.

Run the 90VLDs and don't look back. I don't shoot it past 600 yards. I run mine right at 2800FPS or a tad over.


It has won me way more wall and desk decorations than my 308. :D
 
Thanks for the info guys, appreciate it. XTR what powder are you using? What kind of brass life do you get running em 2800+ ?
 
Here is the recipe, deviate at your own risk:

  1. PT&G ISSF reamer with .169 FB
  2. See #1 above, don't go further with less freebore or you will break something.
  3. 1:7 twist barrel (mine is a 28" 3 groove Lilja, though just ordered a new 30" Brux)
  4. 90 VLDs jam .015
  5. Brass of your choice, I use LC and Federal
  6. 24.5 ±.2 gr of Varget (others work, including H4895)
  7. I shoot Tula 556M primers, but you can't get them any more (Russia sanctions)
  8. Do your load work and get it dialed.



Greg has good luck shooting them jumping 15 or 20, and I want to try that this yr and see how it does. When I did my initial workups jammed I got like .25MOA verticals at 300yds and decided that I wasn't going to chase my tail. He also uses H4895, and gets more velocity but I think his brass pays the price. I can't give an absolute value on my brass. I'd say at least 6 or more. I've only used the Federal Brass for a few matches and I've only used new brass. The LC brass I've been using has a lot of loads on it, I don't count.
 
I use the .169 freebore reamer with both 90gr SMKs and 80gr A-maxs. Both shoot very very well. Im using lapua brass and Varget in mine and I get 2825 fps with the 90 SMK, and 2850 FPS with the 80gr A-max.
 
Running the 90 VLDs at 2850 fps in Lapua brass with H4895 from a 30" barrel is definitely hard on brass; perhaps 3-4 total firings on approximately one-third of it so far before the pockets are trashed. I cull those with a primer pocket go/no go gauge. Whether the survivors have been work-hardened sufficiently to survive longer is as yet unknown. I know several people that have used Varget instead of H4895 and have been getting in the ~2820 fps range. That load seems to be much easier on brass.

Does the extra ~30 fps I get with H4895 make a difference? Hard to say. For a small case like the .223 Rem, I definitely like the fact that H4895 has smaller grains than Varget, but that in and of itself is not a deal-breaker. My take is that as long as the precision with H4895 loads is at least equal to that with Varget, I'll take the extra 30 fps at the expense of brass life. To push the 90s using a small case like the .223 Rem, we are asking a lot of it. To compete against .308 loads, we are also asking a lot from a [relatively] light bullet in terms of performance, even at only 600 yd. Moreover, at 1000 yd, the extra velocity might actually make a noticeable difference. Although I am no longer within close proximity to any 1000 yd ranges, I did shoot the 90s at 1000 yd for some time. Not too many people are currently competing in F-TR with a .223 Rem at 1000 yd, but if you are, the extra velocity is worth consideration, even at the expense of brass life. For MR matches only, I'd suggest keeping the velocity with the 90 VLDs a little lower and gaining a bit more life from your brass. The performance will still be competitive.

The 0.169 freebore reamer was developed by Dave Kiff in conjunction with a couple of Canadian and/or U.K. shooters around 10 years ago. At one time I knew who they were, but have since forgotten, so forgive me for not crediting you if you're one of them. In any event, they were seating the bullets into the lands at the time, probably about .010" or so. This is not surprising for VLD bullets, which have somewhat of a reputation for preferring to be seating into the rifling/lands. This historical observation may be due to the more abrupt transition from ogive to bearing surface on a secant ogive bullet and how it affects entry into the lands, and may also be affected by the shorter bearing surfaces often found on VLD bullets. However, it is not written in stone that VLDS must be seated into the lands in order to perform well.

Wade, when I first used the Hornady OAL gauge to determine the distance to the lands with a 90 VLD in my original rifle with the 0.169" freebore chamber, I pushed the bullet in to what I thought was a hard stop, then measured it. Surprisingly, it came up way short from what I knew it should be based on dummy rounds I had previously made. So I put the bullet/OAL gauge back in and pushed harder on the plastic rod. With sufficient pressure, the bullet moved in significantly further, reaching a "true" hard stop. With a little practice, it was possible to do this without pushing the bullet way into the lands, although it does require a bit of finesse. The bottom line is that the 0.169" freebore on PTG's 223 Rem ISSF reamer has a diameter only .0002" above bullet diameter. What I was experiencing was resistance when trying to push the bullet through that long, tight freebore that is only 2 ten thousandths over bullet diameter. Because the neck diameter cut by that reamer does not require turning (0.2527", no-turn neck), the long tight freebore means that the bullet will automatically be concentric to the bore when the bolt is closed. When fired, it simply has no place else to go but straight into the bore, similar to bullets seated into the lands. That is my best guess as to why I have not found it necessary to seat the 90s into the lands.

The upside to that is that load development with jumped bullets is pretty routine and you don't have to worry about any pressures that might arise from seating the bullet into the lands, especially on an H4895 load such as this that is already at the upper end of realistic working pressure. The downside is that when seating a bullet .015" to .020" off the lands in a chamber that was optimized for loads with the bullet seated .010" into the lands, you're giving up .025" to .030" of usable freebore. For that reason, the 90 VLDs in my load with the 223 Rem ISSF chamber have the boattail/bearing surface just slightly above the neck/shoulder junction. I am currently experimenting with a significantly longer freebore chamber to see how it stacks up. The load for the 0.169" freebore chamber is sickeningly accurate/precise, but it's also very hard on brass. A longer throat may help alleviate that to some extent, especially if you find you can get good precision with the bullet seated out of the lands by .015" to .020".
 
Why a 223 AI? It give you almost nothing more than the 223 due to the very small increase in powder capacity. If your wanting a 600 yrd. gun I would recommend a 224 TTH or a 22-284 or anything with more case capacity. The 223 case is not a good choice to AI. To bad your not close to me, I have a 22-6mm AI chamber reamer I would loan you.
 
Greetings,
FTR requires the standard .223/5.56 or .308/7.62 cartridges. The AI will put you in open class.

I am a sling shooter and am reading along as I have a new Barnard S .223 bf action and 1-7" twist barrel headed my way.

Take care
John
 
The original post says he is getting rid of a 223ai barrel and going straight 223.

I am in load development right now with the 90's as well. Mine was throated out instead of using the Kiff reamer which came out to be a little longer freebore than I was hoping but I'll make it work. If I were to do it over again I would have bought the .169 Kiff reamer and went from there. It is tried and true and everyone's loads are very similar.
 
How much longer, Nick? What COAL are you looking at with the throated loads? I have a new .223 I'm also working up a load for that has a substantially longer throat than the IFFS reamer cuts and it seems to be doing just fine.
 
CBTO may not be that meaningful as I'm using the Hornady caliper insert, which has a hole that is quite a bit smaller than some other brands and therefore seats further out on the ogive. COAL is 2.675"-ish.
 

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