Headspace question

[mausermanbob]

The Challenger is an "O" type cast aluminum press, but the die installation is slightly different from other brands. Lee as help videos for their products, one important note from Lee product techs. They recommend when using "range brass" if following the the die installation instructions results in brass that will not chamber correctly-throw that brass away. Dell time in the die is a good idea, I do it even with dedicated rifle brass and rock chuckers( and the mandrel), range brass always "rests" in the die.

Coyote
I agree that after a standard Lee setup and adapting the help I've received from you all, after several tries with resizing and still getting negative results I need to file 13 that piece of brass.

 

[mausermanbob]

+1

I used to use One-shot for my bulk sizing when I shot XTC and went through lots of cases. Moving to bolt guns and looking to get the best accuracy, I wanted a .002 bump.

Use Imperial Sizing Wax, just a touch goes a long way. Run your die to touch the shell holder, resize, measure…no change, turn the die down 1/8 of a turn, repeat and adjust until you get your desired bump. Lock it in place, resize a few, measure and confirm your results…should be good to go. Different lots and brands of brass will resize differently. Want perfect resizing IMO anneal after every firing, resizing will be so consistent it’s amazing. Remember lube is important, get the feel for using the same each time and you’ll get good results resizing your cases.

Longtrain

I'll look at the Imperial wax, seen it mentioned in other sites.
Annealing is something else I want to look at.
Thanks for your input

 

[Uncle Ed]

I've been reloading for about 1 year.
I have a Lee breach lock Challenger loader.
One of the things that I can't get my head wrapped around is on some of my 223 brass that I pick up off the range when I go to resize it with a full length resizer I can't seem to get the headspace below a certain size, according to my Hornady headspace comparator.
Say a range cartridge headspaces at 1.465, no matter how far I crank the die down I can't get it to resize down any lower than like 1.463.
My bolt action rifle shoots the best at like 1.461.
This is a beginner's question, but why is it that some brass I cannot get to headspace below a certain amount no matter how far down I crank the die.
Any help or suggestions would be much appreciated.

I was lucky and was at the range when the local police departments were firing their M16 rifles. I went home with three 5-gallon buckets full of Lake City 5.56 brass. I had the same problem you are having when sizing this brass. The problem is the M16 chamber is longer and the case springs back more after full length resizing. The simple cure for this is to pause at the top of the ram stroke resizing for 3 to 5 seconds. This makes the brass spring back much less, meaning this keeps the shoulder spring back less after full length resizing. Military chambers are longer than commercial chambers. See the chart below.

 

[DickE]

I would sand down the top side of the shell holder a bit. Circular motion on any flat surface will do. taking off a few thousands. You need more sizing to get the shoulder to bump. Very common problem. I use my mill to surface grind them down .010" quite often.

 

[mausermanbob]

I was lucky and was at the range when the local police departments were firing their M16 rifles. I went home with three 5-gallon buckets full of Lake City 5.56 brass. I had the same problem you are having when sizing this brass. The problem is the M16 chamber is longer and the case springs back more after full length resizing. The simple cure for this is to pause at the top of the ram stroke resizing for 3 to 5 seconds. This makes the brass spring back much less, meaning this keeps the shoulder spring back less after full length resizing. Military chambers are longer than commercial chambers. See the chart below.

Thanks Ed

This information is textbook material.
Your feedback as well as the responses from everyone in the forum is moving me ahead faster than I ever expected.
Interesting on so many levels.
Appreciate it

 

[mausermanbob]

I would sand down the top side of the shell holder a bit. Circular motion on any flat surface will do. taking off a few thousands. You need more sizing to get the shoulder to bump. Very common problem. I use my mill to surface grind them down .010" quite often.

Dicke

That will work.
I have a couple Lee 223 shell holders so making small changes to one and having a standard one to compare to would be a good test.
Very good.

Thanks

 

[6bra1k]

if you are shooting in multiple ar's or using pick up brass, may i suggest a small base die for the first sizing before shot in YOUR RIFLE. just makes life easier. the real problem with ar's is not mil or civilian chambers , it is the CYCLE pulling on the brass. it is very common to see a need for trimming after one firing of ar shooting.
as a side note you are measuring HEAD CLEARENCE. HEADSPACE is a characteristic of a CHAMBER, not of fired brass. yes the tool is mis labeled. pretty dumb for an ammo company.

 

[mausermanbob]

if you are shooting in multiple ar's or using pick up brass, may i suggest a small base die for the first sizing before shot in YOUR RIFLE. just makes life easier. the real problem with ar's is not mil or civilian chambers , it is the CYCLE pulling on the brass. it is very common to see a need for trimming after one firing of ar shooting.
as a side note you are measuring HEAD CLEARENCE. HEADSPACE is a characteristic of a CHAMBER, not of fired brass. yes the tool is mis labeled. pretty dumb for an ammo company.

6bra1k

I'd never noticed the term "Head Clearance". Thank you for calling this out.

I do not have an AR-15 anymore, I had a 1980 Colt AR-15 but I inherited that to my nephew.
Too many moving parts.
I have a Shilen 223 Wylde barrel and a bolt action Zermatt receiver.

Thanks for the information on the AR, at this point I'm interested in anything that happens in the chamber of a rifle no matter which firearm it might be.

 

[PracticalTactical]

I use once fired military brass all the time, and brass picked up off the range wont be much different.

There are a couple tricks that reduce the frustration of such randomness though.

First is that I salt bath anneal all the cases before I do any resizing.

Second, I resize the brass twice. The first time is in a regular FL die. The second time is in a small base die.

Going straight to a small base die will often leave you with a round stuck in your die, so don't skip the regular FL resize step.

I usually start with about 3,000 rounds and when done my prep, I do sort my brass by weight into lots within 1/10th of a grain.

After that, you should be good to go. Treat them like new cases that once fired in your rifle will be as repeatable as more expensive brass.

Just keep an eye out for defects and you'll be fine.

 

[mausermanbob]

I use once fired military brass all the time, and brass picked up off the range wont be much different.

There are a couple tricks that reduce the frustration of such randomness though.

First is that I salt bath anneal all the cases before I do any resizing.

Second, I resize the brass twice. The first time is in a regular FL die. The second time is in a small base die.

Going straight to a small base die will often leave you with a round stuck in your die, so don't skip the regular FL resize step.

I usually start with about 3,000 rounds and when done my prep, I do sort my brass by weight into lots within 1/10th of a grain.

After that, you should be good to go. Treat them like new cases that once fired in your rifle will be as repeatable as more expensive brass.

Just keep an eye out for defects and you'll be fine.

Practicaltactical

Thanks for the information about the small base does and the salt water annealing.
I'll keep both items on my watch list.
Annealing sounds like a good thing.

Thanks

 

[Carl S]

I would start with new lapua brass.throw all unknown brass in the bin.Redding supplies different thickness shell holder's if you need a little more travel on the ram.once new cases are fire formed.remove firing pin assembly from bolt-ejector plunger so there's no resistance on case.adjust die and size brass just enough so bolt just closes.

 

[PracticalTactical]

I would start with new lapua brass.throw all unknown brass in the bin.Redding supplies different thickness shell holder's if you need a little more travel on the ram.once new cases are fire formed.remove firing pin assembly from bolt-ejector plunger so there's no resistance on case.adjust die and size brass just enough so bolt just closes.

Not being critical Carl, but I used to do what you are suggesting, but the cost of Lapua brass started eating at me and I started having a hard time justifying that expense. Keep in mind that I shoot quite a lot.

I thought about claims that Lapua is more consistent than other brass... and yes it is, and that matters if you don't sort your brass.

If you think about variance from a statistical point of view and weight sort 3000 lots of once fired military brass to lots within 1/10th of a grain... the result is brass that is actually more consistent than Lapua for a fraction of the cost.

Sure you have to do some work tumbling, annealing and resizing, but in the end its better brass for less money.

If you dont shoot much, then sure Lapua is a good way to go. Or maybe you just make more money than I do, sure rock on. If you just want good results and dont mind the time on the bench, you can do just as well with reclaimed brass that has been sorted, annealed and in particular, neck turned.

Having gone through this exercise, I cant think of a reason to buy Lapua again.

 

[Carl S]

Not being critical Carl, but I used to do what you are suggesting, but the cost of Lapua brass started eating at me and I started having a hard time justifying that expense. Keep in mind that I shoot quite a lot.

I thought about claims that Lapua is more consistent than other brass... and yes it is, and that matters if you don't sort your brass.

If you think about variance from a statistical point of view and weight sort 3000 lots of once fired military brass to lots within 1/10th of a grain... the result is brass that is actually more consistent than Lapua for a fraction of the cost.

Sure you have to do some work tumbling, annealing and resizing, but in the end its better brass for less money.

If you dont shoot much, then sure Lapua is a good way to go. Or maybe you just make more money than I do, sure rock on. If you just want good results and dont mind the time on the bench, you can do just as well with reclaimed brass that has been sorted, annealed and in particular, neck turned.

Having gone through this exercise, I cant think of a reason to buy Lapua again.

Yes Sir I understand where your coming from.i also shoot quite alot maybe not as much as you.i don't no what discipline you shoot.Benchrest,Varminting,tactical or just general plinking.what ever it is and it makes you happy that's great.lapua brass is expensive but what I've learnt is I get the best accuracy and longevity out of it when I use it in my custom barreld rifles.i haven't found anything better.i have two 6BR'S .269NK.which I cut with the same reamer.i interchange the cases between both rifles with no problems at all and I've lost count how many reloads they have had over the year's.i think most 'accuracy' shooters...I'm not saying you aren't,use lapua brass.thats my personal take.everyone's different and got different idea's..do what makes one happy and enjoy it.Regards.

 

[mausermanbob]

One way to get the case head to datum point on shoulder is to close the bolt on an empty case with a spent primer that is just started into the primer pocket. The bolt will seat the primer and you can measure the dimension from the partially seated primer to the datum point with your Hornady comparator.

One way to get the case head to datum point on shoulder is to close the bolt on an empty case with a spent primer that is just started into the primer pocket. The bolt will seat the primer and you can measure the dimension from the partially seated primer to the datum point with your Hornady comparator.

Update for everyone.

Hopefully this makes some sense, but I'm still processing it.

Raised the decapper.

Chambering new factory brass with spent primer partially seated came out of my rifle at 1.462.
Snug fit but didn't have to strong arm it.

My rifles's range fired brass measured at 1.461.
Longer cam time, hold 5 to 6 seconds then repeat, measured bit under 1.460.
Chambered like new Lapua.

A quick up/down cam on my fired brass as I'd done previously came out at about 1.462.
Could be a property of brass?

So about a .002 difference for me between long can time and shorter one.

Field brass above 1.455 still came out unusable for my rifle.

Appreciate everyone's advice, will improve my loading and my accuracy.
I appreciate your help and look forward to more advice.

 

[PracticalTactical]

Yes Sir I understand where your coming from.i also shoot quite alot maybe not as much as you.i don't no what discipline you shoot.Benchrest,Varminting,tactical or just general plinking.what ever it is and it makes you happy that's great.lapua brass is expensive but what I've learnt is I get the best accuracy and longevity out of it when I use it in my custom barreld rifles.i haven't found anything better.i have two 6BR'S .269NK.which I cut with the same reamer.i interchange the cases between both rifles with no problems at all and I've lost count how many reloads they have had over the year's.i think most 'accuracy' shooters...I'm not saying you aren't,use lapua brass.thats my personal take.everyone's different and got different idea's..do what makes one happy and enjoy it.Regards.

I can see where you are coming from now... Since you shoot a 6BR, you don't really have any other option besides new brass.

I shoot mainly 223 and 308 specifically for the common availability of brass.

BTW, I have shot mainly F Class for about 25 years now and started dabbling in PRS over the last few years. PRS and NRL is another reason I no longer prefer Lapua... I just loose too much of it.

 

[Webster]

Update for everyone.

Hopefully this makes some sense, but I'm still processing it.

Raised the decapper.

Chambering new factory brass with spent primer partially seated came out of my rifle at 1.462.
Snug fit but didn't have to strong arm it.

My rifles's range fired brass measured at 1.461.
Longer cam time, hold 5 to 6 seconds then repeat, measured bit under 1.460.
Chambered like new Lapua.

A quick up/down cam on my fired brass as I'd done previously came out at about 1.462.
Could be a property of brass?

So about a .002 difference for me between long can time and shorter one.

Field brass above 1.455 still came out unusable for my rifle.

Appreciate everyone's advice, will improve my loading and my accuracy.
I appreciate your help and look forward to more advice.

I reloaded for 40 years before I had a bump gauge. Sounds like you are trying to bump brass that doesn't need bump and you are trying to bump too much. Ideally I would fire a case without any bump until there was some resistance to closing the bolt. Bump 0.002"- 0.003" below this measurement and you are perfect. The top nationally ranked long range shooters say to bump just 0.002", 0.003" if the bolt closure is still a little effort. When you are shooting for groups there are at least ten variables all interreacting that are beyond your control. To think you can see a difference in accuracy by changing the bump a few thou is crazy. Take your best load and shoot 5 5 shot groups , for 99% of us the groups will not be close to identical. I'm a varmint hunter don't shoot comp. My rifles can shoot .25" groups if I do a good job with good bullets. I have shot a few groups in the 1's.

 

[mausermanbob]

I reloaded for 40 years before I had a bump gauge. Sounds like you are trying to bump brass that doesn't need bump and you are trying to bump too much. Ideally I would fire a case without any bump until there was some resistance to closing the bolt. Bump 0.002"- 0.003" below this measurement and you are perfect. The top nationally ranked long range shooters say to bump just 0.002", 0.003" if the bolt closure is still a little effort. When you are shooting for groups there are at least ten variables all interreacting that are beyond your control. To think you can see a difference in accuracy by changing the bump a few thou is crazy. Take your best load and shoot 5 5 shot groups , for 99% of us the groups will not be close to identical. I'm a varmint hunter don't shoot comp. My rifles can shoot .25" groups if I do a good job with good bullets. I have shot a few groups in the 1's.

Hey Webster

Good points, thanks.

My initial problem was resizing brass I picked up, which from this point on I will be way more picky about.
My resized pick-up cartridges were usually right at being a snug fit.
With the help of the responses from this forum I now understand the tolerances of the field brass I can resize and how to work my reloader to make that brass a very shootable round for my rifle.
Now that I can make more consistent rounds and eliminate that variable, I can work on the other things that will hopefully allow me to shoot better groups.
It has been a great learning experience.

Thanks Webster
Bob

 

[Webster]

Hey Webster

Good points, thanks.

My initial problem was resizing brass I picked up, which from this point on I will be way more picky about.
My resized pick-up cartridges were usually right at being a snug fit.
With the help of the responses from this forum I now understand the tolerances of the field brass I can resize and how to work my reloader to make that brass a very shootable round for my rifle.
Now that I can make more consistent rounds and eliminate that variable, I can work on the other things that will hopefully allow me to shoot better groups.
It has been a great learning experience.

Thanks Webster
Bob

Thanx, It's nice to post something without being flamed. All of us have different experiences with rifles and we are all trying to help even if we are wrong.