Head Spacing, FL Sizing Die, Shoulder Bump

[vinny]

After reading a couple of threads, I remember why I stopped visiting. No offense gentlmen, I'm easily confused.. I'm a simple man

 

[fguffey]

>>>you have to give dies clearance to form the material the dies are forming<<<

Where did that statement come from?

You are talking about forming a metal with both a punch and die.

and I always wonder who "you" is. If I was going to grind a die and or a shell holder I would first determine how much stock was to be removed. Then there is always that problem that drives reloaders to the curb; that would be the problem they have with determining if the press has the ability to overcome the case's ability to resist sizing. My opinion, when a reloader reduces the deck height of a shell holder or shorten the die by grinding the base they should be able to determine of the press won or the case won.

I have solved problems sizing cases with a better lube. Most cases can be sized with almost any lube. I use a no-name lube for the tuff to form/size cases. I have noticed you have trouble keeping up but for the no-name lube to work the die and shell holder have to have the ability to return the case to minimum length/full length sized.

What does that mean? My 30/06 dies have the ability to return a case to minimum length or put another way; the ability to full length sized the case. I should not be required to explain that to the choir. My cases that have been returned to minimum length when measured from the shoulder to the case head are .005" shorter than a go-gage length chamber.

I do not have 5 reasons why it can not be done, and if I have to agree with Boyd Allen to get along with him? Well it is like lending money; If I have to lend to be a friend then friendship comes to high.

F. Guffey

 

[ireload2]

Guffey
You are wasting your time. I started working in machine shops in 1968. I have no problems measuring anything by 4 or 5 different methods. Do you think that you are the only one with mikes, depth mikes, surface plates, dial indicators, and access to CMMS and 40" optical comparators? It sure seems that you try to think that.

Your dies are inanimate objects. They don't really have any ability to do anything unless a case is forced into them. I know some people take great pride in insisting that they can do anything with nothing at all but I prefer something better than no name lube.
I did not ask you to explain anything. My post that you quoted was not even directed at you or any of your posts. You should go back and re-read the posts and quote the right posts before you start one of your serpentine responses.

But these words still apply. Just try real hard to quote the right post.
>>>But you can measure the cases produced by a shell holder and die combo and know what they produce without measuring anything but the case.<<<


In my best Strother Martin accent....
What we have here is ....
I don't know anyone that can understand you well enough to want to be your friend.

 

[savagedasher]

Guffey
You are wasting your time. I started working in machine shops in 1968. I have no problems measuring anything by 4 or 5 different methods. Do you think that you are the only one with mikes, depth mikes, surface plates, dial indicators, and access to CMMS and 40" optical comparators? It sure seems that you try to think that.

Your dies are inanimate objects. They don't really have any ability to do anything unless a case is forced into them. I know some people take great pride in insisting that they can do anything with nothing at all but I prefer something better than no name lube.
I did not ask you to explain anything. My post that you quoted was not even directed at you or any of your posts. You should go back and re-read the posts and quote the right posts before you start one of your serpentine responses.

But these words still apply. Just try real hard to quote the right post.
>>>But you can measure the cases produced by a shell holder and die combo and know what they produce without measuring anything but the case.<<<


In my best Strother Martin accent....
What we have here is ....
I don't know anyone that can understand you well enough to want to be your friend.

Totally agree . Larry

 

[16tpi]

Who better to ask than the maker of the die? I called Redding.. I explain my question, he says to me that a standard shell holder is agreed upon by die makers to have a nominal of .125....i can tell...tolerance is a little sloppy tho, and also that the die is already .005 bump with a standard Redding shell holder and a type S bushing die, and that the die is also undersized... knew that. And i asked him the same question. so many people bump the shoulder back at least .002. Why not fix the die to bump the extra .002? Says it is set to SAMMI spects and it to (shoulder) is a standard size from the datum on the case, on a Dasher he said it is .350 diameter ring in the middle of the shoulder.. Now any one can make, buy or measure the same place. now from one tool to another depending on the maker it will differ. But what he said to me really got me. Its always been this way, everyone wants to have dies made, and it is not worth the money that you can spend on a shell holder and do the same thing you are doing now. BUT THAT DOESNT FIX IT!!!!!! EVERYONE IS DONING IT SOMETHING IS SCREWED UP SOMEWHERE>>> I WHAT TO KNOW WHERE. I think precision shooting should start with the reloader and his tools to do so.. in Precision not carpenter Bob and this old houses tape measure or some Frank Mic.

So if Peters case holder measures .123 he is going to bump his case shoulder .001 so he needs a negative .001 shell holder to get a .002 bump , if John has a shell holder that is .128, he needs a negative .005 to bump it to the optimal .002 bump everyone else is wanting.....

As i was asking Which one is preferred over the other, taking it off the die to let the case in more, or a special shell holder to shove it up the die more OR OR lengthen the chamber by adding .002 to the GO GAUGE, so that any of this isn't an issue ??? And WHY?? would you do it like that???

Cause I too am an A TOOL&DIE MAKER, and know how to measure several different ways and machine it several different ways or stone it with different stones and lap it several different ways, depending on the finish I want and how true I wanted it. Plug 50 6" holes in a die shoe with threaded plugs beat the living crap out of it and swell the plug in to stay, then put plugs around that and do it again to pin it there. Then stone it all flat by hand no machine... with a stone... think i have earned my money that month!!!!! Hey guys just to let you all know I understand everyone has a way of doing things just want to hear what you would do and why.

 

[DanSavage]

If your rifle has a barrel nut I'd adjust the head space out if you already have the tools to do so, or since your a tool&die maker just take some off the base of the die.

Being a Dasher the head space was probably just set a little too tight, simple little mistake.

 

[fguffey]

What does that mean? My 30/06 dies have the ability to return a case to minimum length or put another way; the ability to full length sized the case. I should not be required to explain that to the choir. My cases that have been returned to minimum length when measured from the shoulder to the case head are .005" shorter than a go-gage length chamber.

Who better to ask than the maker of the die? I called Redding.. I explain my question, he says to me that a standard shell holder is agreed upon by die makers to have a nominal of .125....i can tell...tolerance is a little sloppy tho, and also that the die is already .005 bump with a standard Redding shell holder and a type S bushing die, and that the die is also undersized... knew that. And i asked him the same question. so many people bump the shoulder back at least .002. Why not fix the die to bump the extra .002? Says it is set to SAMMI spects and it to (shoulder) is a standard size from the datum on the case, on a Dasher he said it is .350 diameter ring in the middle of the shoulder.. Now any one can make, buy or measure the same place. now from one tool to another depending on the maker it will differ. But what he said to me really got me. Its always been this way, everyone wants to have dies made, and it is not worth the money that you can spend on a shell holder and do the same thing you are doing now. BUT THAT DOESNT FIX IT!!!!!! EVERYONE IS DONING IT SOMETHING IS SCREWED UP SOMEWHERE>>> I WHAT TO KNOW WHERE. I think precision shooting should start with the reloader and his tools to do so.. in Precision

And i asked him the same question. so many people bump the shoulder back at least .002. Why not fix the die to bump the extra .002? Says it is set to SAMMI spects and it to (shoulder) is a standard size from the datum on the case, on a Dasher he said it is .350 diameter ring in the middle of the shoulder..

All of that can be done; The most difficult part/barrier is convincing the choir they can do it. Then the choir starts name dropping; boring. I called Redding, I will not quote or repeat what was said. Then there was that time a few members called SAAMI, they told on me. They informed SAAMI I said the case does not have head space. SAAMI did not say the case had head space but I would suspect SAAMI can managed to be nice to all callers. The one that almost got to me, a member of a reloading forum called RCBS; the member informed RCBS I said the Rock Checker did not cam over.

He said they said; "give him my phone number and tell him to call me". If I called RCBS I would first have to find someone at RCBS that knows anything or something about an automatic transmission. It should not be necessary to explain to the choir 'again' I have 2 Piggy Back 11 press that are mounted on Rock Chuckers. The Piggy Back presses are 'auto' advance. (auto advance/automatic transmissions?).

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

So if Peters case holder measures .123 he is going to bump his case shoulder .001 so he needs a negative .001 shell holder to get a .002 bump , if John has a shell holder that is .128, he needs a negative .005 to bump it to the optimal .002 bump everyone else is wanting.....

It is not that complicated, all he needs to know is the deck height of the shell holder. Again; I purchased a #6 set of Redding competition shell holders. Three of the shell holders were off by .001" each, for me that is not a problem. Anything task I can accomplish with a competition shell holder I can accomplish without the competition shell holder. For $5.00 I could not pass up on the offer. I have a butt grinder, the grinder also is an in-line grinder and it will grind shoulders.

My presses and dies have threads, threads make it possible to adjust the die in the press.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

But these words still apply. Just try real hard to quote the right post.
>>>But you can measure the cases produced by a shell holder and die combo and know what they produce without measuring anything but the case.<<<

ireload2 said: ↑
>>>you have to give dies clearance to form the material the dies are forming<<<
Click to expand...
Where did that statement come from?

You are talking about forming a metal with both a punch and die.

I ask; "What does that mean?". I also ask; "Who is "you"?.

If everything you claim is true why do you act like your being threatened? Why do you seem to be so angry if you are happy.

F. Guffey

 

[AckleymanII]

Whidden may be making a set of sizers in different dimensions to size the web area only, contact them.

I would really like to size the web in a separate stage from pushing the shoulder back. Most full length sizers push the shoulder back too far in order to be able to size the web to a proper dimension.

The difference between SAAMI spec on American brass and CIP for European brass complicates this whole issue. I have been talking to John Whidden on this issue, and he made a set of trial dies that I am trying out that goes from .468-.471 on various kinds of brass. If some of you are not familiar with Whidden dies, they are absolutely top Shelf, and their customer service is as good as can be had in the industry.

.002 is not very much of a bump, but it sure is the difference between a tight bolt closing and a loose bolt closing, split the difference and achieve a small amount of contact that you can just barely feel on the bolt.

Seems like every case I shoot has a high pressure accuracy node very close to a max load, bumping the shoulders just works dumb butt simple.

Jeez, we started bumping shoulders in the mid 80's shooting sky high pressures on Sako 220 Russian brass in 6 PPC, then went to a web sizer... nothing new about any of this.

 

[fguffey]

Seems like every case I shoot has a high pressure accuracy node very close to a max load, bumping the shoulders just works dumb butt simple.

And if it was possible to make a commitment without hurting someone's feelings we could discuss the difference between a case that fits and a case that is sized to minimum length in a go-gage length chamber.

F. Guffey

 

[AckleymanII]

And if it was possible to make a commitment without hurting someone's feelings we could discuss the difference between a case that fits and a case that is sized to minimum length in a go-gage length chamber.

F. Guffey

You won't hurt my feelings at all, been known to actually learn a thing or two from others, total accident of course.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I dont have to have a correct shell holder. My dies never touch em when my bump is set up for my chamber. Not sure where they even entered the conversation. I can take any case i load for and substitute shell holders from all brands and use different presses and get my cases to fit the same every time

 

[BoydAllen]

I dont have to have a correct shell holder. My dies never touch em when my bump is set up for my chamber. Not sure where they even entered the conversation. I can take any case i load for and substitute shell holders from all brands and use different presses and get my cases to fit the same every time

That is because you cut your own chambers to a depth that allows that....which is the intelligent way to proceed. So many times I run across fellows that think that chambering so that headspace is at an absolute minimum is the best way to go. As you know, properly done, cases are fired with clearance beyond bump one time, but they are sized many times. Chambering a rifle so that you have a tight clearance for that first firing, but cannot achieve proper bump after that, without modifying equipment, seems silly, unless you are only going to shoot factory ammo.

 

[16tpi]

• That is because you cut your own chambers to a depth that allows that....which is the intelligent way to proceed. So many times I run across fellows that think that chambering so that headspace is at an absolute minimum is the best way to go. As you know, properly done, cases are fired with clearance beyond bump one time, but they are sized many times. Chambering a rifle so that you have a tight clearance for that first firing, but cannot achieve proper bump after that, without modifying equipment, seems silly, unless you are only going to shoot factory ammo.

To what Depth are you cutting the chamber past a standard go gauge?? So that you don't have to have a special shell holder? Would you consider this to be a Field gauge? As to some of the smith books I have read, they are saying no go, field go gauge and a go gauge.

 

[16tpi]

I dont have to have a correct shell holder. My dies never touch em when my bump is set up for my chamber. Not sure where they even entered the conversation. I can take any case i load for and substitute shell holders from all brands and use different presses and get my cases to fit the same every time

?

 

[BoydAllen]

If you do a little research, and look at some SAAMI rimless chamber prints you will see that correct headspace has a typical range of .010, so gunsmiths have some leeway as far as how far in they can run their reamers. If you chamber to the min. dimension, you are much more likely to run into issues related to not being able to bump fired case shoulders as you FL or body size. One little tip. In the past, I could not get the links on the SAAMI list of drawings to work until I switched from Firefox to Internet Explorer. For those of you who have spent so much time on the internet that you think that variations in the ten thousandths are scandalous, and multiple thousandths should be grounds for incarceration, get out your calipers and open them to .010 and look at the gap.

 

[16tpi]

If you do a little research, and look at some SAAMI rimless chamber prints you will see that correct headspace has a typical range of .010, so gunsmiths have some leeway as far as how far in they can run their reamers. If you chamber to the min. dimension, you are much more likely to run into issues related to not being able to bump fired case shoulders as you FL or body size. One little tip. In the past, I could not get the links on the SAAMI list of drawings to work until I switched from Firefox to Internet Explorer. For those of you who have spent so much time on the internet that you think that variations in the ten thousandths are scandalous, and multiple thousandths should be grounds for incarceration, get out your calipers and open them to .010 and look at the gap.

Yes, this variation is stupid .010!! How in the world does a person call this precision???? That is where it is all out of wack. So is that +.005 -.005 or +.010 -.000? So a go and no go gauge is a useless paper weight! Reference only. Hey I have a 6mm Dsomething I need to buy dies to reload with and all the other crap to correcting for this .010 deviation from chamber to chamber. All that makes perfect precision carpenter shooting and reloading. .010 more and you could have a spark plug gap for you car!!!

 

[BoydAllen]

Go to the SAAMI site and look at some drawings. As to your rant, calm down, gunsmiths will still use gauges, they just need to know how they should use them. My point was that setting up a chamber to minimum headspace is not, to my thinking a virue. I would also say that I can find no reason to set one at +.010. For a reloader, there is only one time where the extra clearance of a maximum headspace chamber would make any difference, when a new case is fired the first time. After that, fit is a matter of die setting. The significance of magnitude is in its practical effect. For some things like reamer pilot sizing we work to tenths (of a thousandth), for other situations this would be silly.

 

[ireload2]

1. If you post a response why don't you keep your replys relevant to the subject?
2. Forget the untelligible cryto-English - I think you are the only one that understands most of your posts.
3. If you are asked a question or receive a conflicting comment why don't you answer the question directly or limit your reponses to the subject matter without the deliberate obfuscation?

I ask; "What does that mean?". I also ask; "Who is "you"?.

If everything you claim is true why do you act like your being threatened? Why do you seem to be so angry if you are happy.

F. Guffey