Head space +

[BoydAllen]

How do you not move the shoulder with FL dies?

It sounds to me like you need to review some videos that show how this is done. It requires some sort of tool to measure a case's shoulder to head dimension. Dies are set by screwing them up or down in the press, varying the distance of the die's internal shoulder from the shell holder.

Unfortunately die manufacturers may have generic instructions (and one video that I know of) that tell users to raise the ram, screw the die down until it touches the shell holder, lower the ram, lower the die an additional eighth to quarter turn and lock it down. While this will return a case to its new shoulder to head dimension, doing that several times is likely to cause a separation.

One thing that you need to keep in mind when adjusting a die is that one turn raises or lowers the die approximately .071", so hitting your mark to .001 takes a very light touch.

 

[BoydAllen]

I deleted my mistake.

 

[jds holler]

Bottom line in this is -- who in the hell would want a belted cartridge in this day and age. jd

 

[Webster]

I recently got some used brass [7mm mag] it has excessive head space. Like .015 to .020. If it will fire with just the primer it should fire a loaded round?? I don't want to jam the bullet as it has to fit the mag. I will buy new if my shop has it tomorrow. Doubt it lol.
Thanks for your time, Don.

I would jam the first firing like a normal FF. It doesn't have to fit the magazine for FF. Single load the first time. This should give you the best case shape. When I FF 6br to 6BRX I have 0.100" space in front of the shoulder.

 

[BoydAllen]

I would jam the first firing like a normal FF. It doesn't have to fit the magazine for FF. Single load the first time. This should give you the best case shape. When I FF 6br to 6BRX I have 0.100" space in front of the shoulder.

I think that we need to remember that this is a belted case, which makes the situation entirely different with respect to whether or not a case will fire, and fire forming, as compared to a rimless case. The belt will stop the case from moving forward (just like it would with a rimmed case) no matter how short the case might be at the shoulder. If the used cases have been resized to their current head to shoulder length, then there may be an issue with the brass being overworked by being fired in a chamber that is a lot longer at the shoulder, but if it is once fired brass, and the chamber it was fired in is that much shorter at the shoulder than the one that it will now be fired in, then it is possible that things could be just fine going forward, as long as the FL die is set for the proper bump.

 

[M-61]

Absolutely untrue, particularly with a belted case. Those dies need to be set like you would for a rimless case, measuring a fired case, and then adjusting the die for the desired shoulder to head dimension. Dies for belted cases are intentionally built to cover a wide range of shoulder to head dimensions in rifles, because that dimension is not what is controlled when setting chamber headspace. Even with a rimless case that will chamber, a die may be able to be set to push the shoulder back.

I thought I was saying ‘yes’ too.
You don’t arbitrarily push shoulders back. Difficult chambering is the reason.
I stated earlier that after once or twice the belt has nothing to with the headspace except in two cases that I also stated.
What is “absolutely untrue “? You bother reading what I wrote?
Also read the OP. How far do you want to stretch that brass? You have no idea what his used brass has been through. That’s why belted cases fail right above the belt, if indeed they have a problem.
Never saw one split length wise as some rimless cases.

 

[BoydAllen]

I thought I was saying ‘yes’ too.
You don’t arbitrarily push shoulders back. Difficult chambering is the reason.
I stated earlier that after once or twice the belt has nothing to with the headspace except in two cases that I also stated.
What is “absolutely untrue “? You bother reading what I wrote?
Also read the OP. How far do you want to stretch that brass? You have no idea what his used brass has been through. That’s why belted cases fail right above the belt, if indeed they have a problem.
Never saw one split length wise as some rimless cases.

I went back and reread all the posts. YOU ARE CORRECT. I screwed up. I apologize for that. To avoid confusion, I will take my post down. Thanks for catching and pointing out my mistake.

 

[Webster]

I recently got some used brass [7mm mag] it has excessive head space. Like .015 to .020. If it will fire with just the primer it should fire a loaded round?? I don't want to jam the bullet as it has to fit the mag. I will buy new if my shop has it tomorrow. Doubt it lol.
Thanks for your time, Don.

What's the definition of excessive headspace. Can someone comment on the HS of factory store bought ammo.

 

[mikecr]

What's the definition of excessive headspace. Can someone comment on the HS of factory store bought ammo.

I don't know of an official standard.
But when headspace is so high as to cause thinning at the webline, it's excessive.
Factory ammo is disposable. It only needs to work once.

 

[RAM2940]

Can't you use a Wilson adjustable case gauge. You take a fired piece of brass from your chamber, adjust the gauge to fit and then you can measure your newly sized brass to the chambers spec.

 

[Webster]

I don't know of an official standard.
But when headspace is so high as to cause thinning at the webline, it's excessive.
Factory ammo is disposable. It only needs to work once.

I assume factory loaded ammo is made to spec. It shouldn't be crappier brass than what you buy as brass only?

 

[bsekf]

SAAMI is the standard for factory case length/headspace. IMHO, 0.0 headspace is when the case completely fills the chamber, there is no distance between the case head and the datum line when the breech is closed. 0.002 headspace is when the case is .002 shorter than the chamber when the breech is closed. Boyd, is that about right in my simple terms?

In my experience case separation doesn't usually happen till the headspace exceeds 0.010, however accuracy will suffer with excessive headspace. And, a case with negative headspace can be resized by the cramming action of a bolt gun and accuracy will suffer.

 

[mikecr]

I assume factory loaded ammo is made to spec. It shouldn't be crappier brass than what you buy as brass only?

Don't assume (in a broad sense) that loaded factory ammo brass is the same as reloading brass.
If you consider this from a business standpoint, there is no reason for it to be.
There is no gain for a factory to use expensive brass for ammo, as one shot from each round is all people need. And using cheaper brass allows lower price, and then folks will buy more of it.

If you're buying Remington 30-06 ammo, are you buying it for reloading brass?
You're some sort of fancy reloader, looking for the best brass?
No,, No,, you're buying cheap ammo because it's cheap.

I've seen visible cracks on both Remington and Winchester factory ammo. This does not prevent safe single firing, but it wouldn't survive reloading cycles. This is common with niche cartridges, and flipside, ammo normally sold in bulk.
You might be able to walk into a Cabelas and find/compare WSSM factory ammo brass to Winchester's reloading brass for WSSM (in bags). If you can, you WILL see that the WSSM reloading brass is far better.
And if you look closely at 223 Remington factory ammo brass, you'll end up afraid to shoot some of that.

 

[searcher]

Didn't know about headspace at the belt. Maybe I will shoot them and fire form to chamber?
ty

Just load and shoot. You can improve the accuracy by allowing the shoulder to blow out and almost touch the forward end of chamber, basically like headspacing off the shoulder. That is the inherent problem with the belted magnums - the varying thickness of the belt. In this situation - it is your friend.

 

[searcher]

Unfortunately die manufacturers may have generic instructions (and one video that I know of) that tell users to raise the ram, screw the die down until it touches the shell holder, lower the ram, lower the die an additional eighth to quarter turn and lock it down. While this will return a case to its new shoulder to head dimension, doing that several times is likely to cause a separation.

BoydAllen brings up a huge topic for new shooters here. Getting an accurately set die using the "turn a quarter turn and lock 'er down" method is what probably frustrates more first-time reloaders than anything else in reloading. Would be good for the die makers to make a "newbie" die kit which includes a dial gauge and a measuring tool similar to the likes of the Hornady Lock N Load tool. Maybe a shell holder too. Or at least put a ORDER THIS TOOL BEFORE PROCEEDING decal on the front of the die box. Would save a lot of frustration for the new folks, I'm sure.

 

[Link]

Well i'm back. I have been reloading for a Looooong time. 7RM was one of the first rounds I reloaded, it has been many moons. My sizing die is a old Pasific Durachrome 7mm mag. When I adjust my die as this video suggests I get .020 shoulder to head - headspace. All I did to correct this is back the die up. Now I get about .004 headspace and the unloaded bolt still cams over nicely. I guess this FL die must be a little short on headspace for my hunting rifles chamber. I also removed the ball as it was a pita. After doing this I get .002 neck tension, so why bother..
thanks guys Don...

resizing belted magnum cases 7mm mag - Search Videos

www.bing.com

 

[mikecr]

I'm not sure why a magnum case would be treated any different from non-magnum.
The case still reaches back to the bolt face, and you still don't want that reach in excess.

I understand that you have a belt to stop forward movement for your fire forming.
Once the shoulder is formed to zero headspace, you would set your die for ~2thou shoulder bump.
You measure that case head to shoulder datum with a gizzy and log it. Maintain it.

Until you've fire formed to your chamber, you don't know anything about your chamber.
So fire forming is important, to then match sizing to your plan.
I don't see how case type makes any difference there.

 

[bsekf]

I have a question about "belted" cases. Was the cartridge designed to head space on the belt or was the belt put on to strengthen the case head so you could load to higher pressure?

 

[Bill K]

Read and follow the instructions that come with the die set on adjustments.

How do you not move the shoulder with FL dies?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Read and follow the instructions that come with the die set on adjustments.

That's just the opposite of what people are saying here. Adjusting per the die instructions should push the shoulder back enough that the sized case will fit ANY rifle chambered for the same caliber/cartridge. Of course it will work but will also very likely result in excessive shoulder bump and working of the brass, shortening brass life and potentially affecting accuracy. It is the default answer as far as "reloading 101" goes but advanced handloaders seldom set their dies this way for the reasons I just mentioned.

Like I said several posts back, fire the brass, then forget all about that belt being there. Adjust the dies for minimal shoulder bump. .002-.003 is a commonly used number for this amount of headspace clearance.