Head scratcher!

[K22]

It’s hard for me to believe in cold welding with all of the factory rounds produced and used many years later.

I have the same thoughts! Also my experience with reloads carried over from season to season do not show any performance issues.

 

[K22]

So you totally discount all of the well written accounts and pictures relating to this subject? Many of us have personal experiences with cold welding. It is one of the main reasons that some competitors load their rounds long and then seat them to final length just before a match.

I don't discount it; I just have questions since I have never had any performance effects of reloads carried over from season to season. However, I am always open to learning something new if I can improve my results.

My question is relative to factory ammo. With this ammo you have a bullet seated in virgin brass plus a crimp, plus sitting idle an indefinite amount of time yet I have some fellow shooters that shoot Federal Premium ammo consistently with outstanding accuracy and results but more importantly, without pressure surges like the OP stated. Why doesn't cold welding affect this ammo which supposedly the conditions seem ideal for a cold-welding affect?

 

[rogina]

I don't discount it; I just have questions since I have never had any performance effects of reloads carried over from season to season. However, I am always open to learning something new if I can improve my results.

My question is relative to factory ammo. With this ammo you have a bullet seated in virgin brass plus a crimp, plus sitting idle an indefinite amount of time yet I have some fellow shooters that shoot Federal Premium ammo consistently with outstanding accuracy and results but more importantly, without pressure surges like the OP stated. Why doesn't cold welding affect this ammo which supposedly the conditions seem ideal for a cold-welding affect?

The factory ammo is crimped, so the cold welding does not add anymore bullet tension.

 

[Doom]

Cold welding if it is to occur requires very clean surfaces on both the bullet and the case neck. Depending on the cleaning method it is possible that some degree of cold welding can occur. Cases that are very clean and loaded right after cleaning where the oxide coating on the case hasn't been established are going to be more susceptible. Coating with something like graphite that comes between the bullet and neck reduces the chances of this happening.

 

[DiRTY DOG]

It’s hard for me to believe in cold welding with all of the factory rounds produced and used many years later.

Factory rounds- Bare bullets, new clean brass with no carbon in the necks and no neck lube. Sits on store shelves months/years, then sits on the buyer's shelf for months/years. No cold welding. How is this possible? Why is factory loaded ammo immune to this mysterious cold welding problem?

Or, is cold welding a myth, or an issue confused with something else?

For example, fingerprints on copper bullet jackets causing corrosion between the brass case and copper jacket once seated? Some people's fingerprints seem to be very corrosive on blued guns or brass cartridges. Curiously, I have never experienced cold welding, but I use nitrile gloves when loading because I like shiny cases.

Or, factory cases may sit around for long periods before being loaded, allowing oxidation to take place which may for a natural barrier against cold welding. Compared to handloaders who often immediately load freshly used/cleaned/brushed brass which has not had time to oxidize yet and could lead to cold welding.

Or, factory ammo may be rinsed/cleaned with something that prevents oxidation. Similar to handloaders using car wax in dry and wet tumblers. Maybe some types of car wax causes or prevents cold welding or causes or prevents the corrosion that causes cold welding. Same with bullets, some are rinsed in liquid chemicals after the manufacturing process to make them bright and shiny and some are dry tumbled.

 

[BoydAllen]

I don't discount it; I just have questions since I have never had any performance effects of reloads carried over from season to season. However, I am always open to learning something new if I can improve my results.

My question is relative to factory ammo. With this ammo you have a bullet seated in virgin brass plus a crimp, plus sitting idle an indefinite amount of time yet I have some fellow shooters that shoot Federal Premium ammo consistently with outstanding accuracy and results but more importantly, without pressure surges like the OP stated. Why doesn't cold welding affect this ammo which supposedly the conditions seem ideal for a cold-welding affect?

The short answer is I don't know, but I might speculate that the brass and/or bullets might retain some kind of residue from being manufactured. I do know one thing. The only way that I know of to confirm cold welding is to seat the bullets deeper. In my experience this does not take place uniformly within a batch of ammo, so a considerable sample would have to be reseated to really know. Do you know of many who compete who use factory ammo? I do not. For other types of shooting, with factory ammo that is not loaded as hot as many handloads are, it may be that the issue is not significant given the uses.

 

[BoydAllen]

Factory rounds- Bare bullets, new clean brass with no carbon in the necks and no neck lube. Sits on store shelves months/years, then sits on the buyer's shelf for months/years. No cold welding. How is this possible? Why is factory loaded ammo immune to this mysterious cold welding problem?

Or, is cold welding a myth, or an issue confused with something else?

How exactly do you know that factory ammo does not have this problem?

 

[K22]

The short answer is I don't know, but I might speculate that the brass and/or bullets might retain some kind of residue from being manufactured. I do know one thing. The only way that I know of to confirm cold welding is to seat the bullets deeper. In my experience this does not take place uniformly within a batch of ammo, so a considerable sample would have to be reseated to really know. Do you know of many who compete who use factory ammo? I do not. For other types of shooting, with factory ammo that is not loaded as hot as many handloads are, it may be that the issue is not significant given the uses.

Thanks for the reply.

I do not know anyone who competes with factory ammo unless you include 22 rimfire. The ones that I do know only compete only at local club matches (w/ reloads), not at the national level with the top shooters in the sport.

I do not compete unless you consider competing against varmints under vary environmental conditions, terrain, varying distances, changing shot profiles, and insects tormenting you.

But on a serious note, I think I am going to try an experiment. This winter, when I load up for the upcoming varmint season, I am going to seat the bullets long then reseat in the spring to my established seating depth and see if I can detect an improvement. It's a relatively painless exercise and might be worth testing the premise at the range.

I am thinking of a .050" OAL increase my normal seating depth. Do you think that's enough to test the premise? Thanks in advance for your input.

 

[farmerjohn]

I have the same thoughts! Also my experience with reloads carried over from season to season do not show any performance issues.

In my experience this problem never shows up until you get really close to the edge of the pressure limits. None of the factory stuff is loaded that close to the edge and is probably a factor figured into the factory recipe. One thing that you can look at is to run that recipe on a load program and just see what the pressure is. I went back and looked at my notes and with a short bearing surface 55gr Nosler BT 32.5 gave me a stiff bolt and that particular barrel has been worn out for a while. It's a ppc that was shot out and rechambered to 6br and has been used for a while, no telling how many rds. His barrel could be a lot tighter than this old one. What I'm saying is he's probably running really close to the edge already and it doesn't take much from there. One of you guys run the pressure on a program and see, you have his recipe, 32gr varget, barts 68, lap brass and a 450 primer.... you might be surprised....MHO... John

 

[BoydAllen]

Thanks for the reply.

I do not know anyone who competes with factory ammo unless you include 22 rimfire. The ones that I do know only compete only at local club matches (w/ reloads), not at the national level with the top shooters in the sport.

I do not compete unless you consider competing against varmints under vary environmental conditions, terrain, varying distances, changing shot profiles, and insects tormenting you.

But on a serious note, I think I am going to try an experiment. This winter, when I load up for the upcoming varmint season, I am going to seat the bullets long then reseat in the spring to my established seating depth and see if I can detect an improvement. It's a relatively painless exercise and might be worth testing the premise at the range.

I am thinking of a .050" OAL increase my normal seating depth. Do you think that's enough to test the premise? Thanks in advance for your input.

Yes, I do. The main thing is to label your loads so that you do not forget and take them to the range or hunting with the bullets seated long. I would tape the boxes shut with a large note on them. Painters tape is easier to remove than masking tape.

 

[Zero333]

Cold welding bullet to mouth and powder dried up during this time.

This is why military surplus ammo from the com-block countries seal the bullet mouth and primer so it will ALWAYS go BANG without any issues even after 50+ years of sitting around.

I have tons of Chink surplus 7.62x39 that was loaded in 1973' and it shoots great and even after several thousand rounds of shooting them I've not had any issues.

I also have Czechoslovakian surplus.. no problems.

Also have Romanian Surplus... no problems.

Also have Ruski surplus... never any issues either.

If you know you're gonna store them for a while it's not a bad idea to seal the bullet in the case mouth and the primer in the pocket.

 

[Doom]

Military ammunition is sealed to protect the rounds from water ingress.

 

[Bill Norris]

Up until app. a year ago I doubted the cold weld theory. I had some hand loaded ammo I decided I wanted to pull and use the brass with another load. Got the old hammer (impact puller) out and bumped on it but no dice. I then put my seater die in the press and moved the bullets a couple thousandths to break them loose. The well noted pop occurred.

 

[Downhill]

UPDATE.
Having read the posts on cold welding, having taken metallurgy classes as a weld inspector it does happen with many of the "heavy" metals.
But pulled all down and charged 29, 29.5 and 30 Varget. Liking 30. No pressure issues at all. Back to pennies at 100, quarter size target at 200 and poker chips at 300.

 

[Downhill]

And in case anyone is curious, Hooker Red is the most accurate color for a XP 100 in 6BR. (Everyone knows that!).
Thanks for all the input guys.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

And in case anyone is curious, Hooker Red is the most accurate color for a XP 100 in 6BR. (Everyone knows that!).
Thanks for all the input guys.

The dog leg bolt handle looks great with the Red.

 

[mikecr]

This could have been an opportunity to gain knowledge.
And knowledge is more important than any other matter.

 

[divingin]

One of you guys run the pressure on a program and see, you have his recipe, 32gr varget, barts 68, lap brass and a 450 primer.... you might be surprised....MHO... John

Using defaults for brass and primer, 32gns Varget with a Berger 68 (.2" of seat depth) in a straight 6BR Norma yields 44135psi (max allowable is 62K, I think.) Increasing depth to .4" yields 51404psi. All per Gordons Reloading Tool.

 

[farmerjohn]

Using defaults for brass and primer, 32gns Varget with a Berger 68 (.2" of seat depth) in a straight 6BR Norma yields 44135psi (max allowable is 62K, I think.) Increasing depth to .4" yields 51404psi. All per Gordons Reloading Tool.

Thank you! I don't have one of those gadgets but I figured it would be hotter than that, it seems like in my rig. It's chambered with my reamer, zero freebore, I use my old bench rest barrels for prairie dogs and that load is my favorite with the 55gr Nosler, may be why it's lasted so long..... John

 

[divingin]

Thank you! I don't have one of those gadgets but I figured it would be hotter than that, it seems like in my rig. It's chambered with my reamer, zero freebore, I use my old bench rest barrels for prairie dogs and that load is my favorite with the 55gr Nosler, may be why it's lasted so long..... John

No problem. GRT is load simulation software, not a tool. Runs on Windows or Linux (no Mac version.) Free, which is why I use it over Quickload. Be aware, though, that like any other tool, it can be subject to errors.