I was seating bullets for my 6-284 and had 1 rnd than took hardly any pressure to seat. I am using a 21st century's new seating press and I also have a K&M with a force indicator , so it is not an arbitrary statement. First I checked for a small pressure ring, then I checked neck wall thickness(turned necks)used the same size die and bushing as well as expander mandrel(don't use expander ball),and checked outside neck dia after seating. Could not find any discrepancy! The cases were all annealed at the same time using my Bench Source. Neck were all clean and used q-tip with powdered graphite. Even tried seating in a non lubed neck. I don't have a clue!! One of you knowledgable guys help me out. Only 1 round out of 50 but it's driving me nuts!
Head scratcher!
- Thread starter Jeff Von Rosenberg
- Start date
+ 1 Larry
The time I ran across this is is when there was a split in the neck. It was a micro crack that was not very visible but clear when views under a magnifier.
A heavily over annealed neck will also do this but unless you have a problem you did not notice annealing, the Benchsource should not cause this.
A heavily over annealed neck will also do this but unless you have a problem you did not notice annealing, the Benchsource should not cause this.
Checked neck wall thickness with 2 diff. Ball mica. Maybe your right about heat from turning, but I am very careful removing debris and chips after every case and living mandrel and neck every case(mix of Mobil 1 and ATF) wish I had a hardness tester! I will check for a split neck. Thanks guys!
Just took the case and polished inside and out with 0000 steel wool and then polished with Flitz, used a jewlery loupe and couldn't find a crack. Donovan just rechecked neck thickness and .0125 just like the others!!!???
I would be willing to bet what you may be experiencing is a case that has been, for whatever reason, slightly "over-annealed".. I still do small quantities of brass "by hand" and sometimes get phenomenon like you stated.. As long as the bullet does in fact seat, mark it and see if it prints differently than the others..
If it is the same brass that does it I would give it to the brass god. Larry
jonbearman
I live in new york state,how unfortunate !
maybe it didnt anneal enough for some reason and the springback is overiding the amount you are trying to size.
searcher
Gold $$ Contributor
I too have and sometimes tune up my brass using the K&M Seating Force tool. Amazing what you learn over time. Likewise the process of annealing.
Have you ever noticed when using tempelaq and annealing on an automated annealer that a number of cases take a slightly different amount of time to hit that "just right" temperature? Notice that some of the cases are still in the "flame" for a second or two more than was needed according to the tempelaq - yet the next two or three are right on? And you KNOW that the necks are pretty darned uniform as were just turned. I've seen cases "glow" when there was no apparent reason. I used to flip them aside after coming off the machine so I could measure them and maybe segregate them from the others. Most were the same darn size as the others. If you have annealed a lot - you know what I'm talking about. I used to think - maybe this case was harder or softer than the others - therefor the difference in dwell time to anneal. I don't think that so much any more because many of those cases never reach the same level of "hardness" where the force of seating a bullet is the same as the other cases. I've also noticed this occurance is very minimal using Lapua (maybe 1 or 2 cases per 100 at most), the same or less using Norma, quite often using most brands of other commercial brass (maybe 4 to 6 per 100) and if using once-fired brass of one brand - yet mixed from various lots - it can be like 20 out of 100. This is all with neck-turned brass that is not "off" in thickness enough to normally made a difference. It did take me a while to realize that brass that had been fired had to be segregated from the unfired cases as the carbon in the neck reacts during the annealing process, creating a different temperature than the unfired cases using the same flame dwelltime. If a handful of cases are shot repetitively and then rejoined with lesser-fired brass - there will be differences between them after annealing - just as there were before - but not as pronounced
To make a long story short, I think there are metallurgical attributes of the differenct lots of brass that make them react differently to annealing, sometimes very subtle and not even noticeable - to very noticeable. Perhaps some manufacturers allow batches within a certain lot to mix - I don't know.
I do know this - when I have only one out of 50 that looks or acts very odd in any way. I toss it in the can and that is that. I have very few sets of brass that still contain all the "original cast" and I'm sure they shoot better for it.
Have you ever noticed when using tempelaq and annealing on an automated annealer that a number of cases take a slightly different amount of time to hit that "just right" temperature? Notice that some of the cases are still in the "flame" for a second or two more than was needed according to the tempelaq - yet the next two or three are right on? And you KNOW that the necks are pretty darned uniform as were just turned. I've seen cases "glow" when there was no apparent reason. I used to flip them aside after coming off the machine so I could measure them and maybe segregate them from the others. Most were the same darn size as the others. If you have annealed a lot - you know what I'm talking about. I used to think - maybe this case was harder or softer than the others - therefor the difference in dwell time to anneal. I don't think that so much any more because many of those cases never reach the same level of "hardness" where the force of seating a bullet is the same as the other cases. I've also noticed this occurance is very minimal using Lapua (maybe 1 or 2 cases per 100 at most), the same or less using Norma, quite often using most brands of other commercial brass (maybe 4 to 6 per 100) and if using once-fired brass of one brand - yet mixed from various lots - it can be like 20 out of 100. This is all with neck-turned brass that is not "off" in thickness enough to normally made a difference. It did take me a while to realize that brass that had been fired had to be segregated from the unfired cases as the carbon in the neck reacts during the annealing process, creating a different temperature than the unfired cases using the same flame dwelltime. If a handful of cases are shot repetitively and then rejoined with lesser-fired brass - there will be differences between them after annealing - just as there were before - but not as pronounced
To make a long story short, I think there are metallurgical attributes of the differenct lots of brass that make them react differently to annealing, sometimes very subtle and not even noticeable - to very noticeable. Perhaps some manufacturers allow batches within a certain lot to mix - I don't know.
I do know this - when I have only one out of 50 that looks or acts very odd in any way. I toss it in the can and that is that. I have very few sets of brass that still contain all the "original cast" and I'm sure they shoot better for it.
Not to hijack the thread but I am wondering if annealing differences can be caused by slight amounts of chemical make up of the brass. A little more of this a little less of that in one area can drastically change the melting point and I assume the annealing point of the brass. They are bound to have some ammounts of chemical make up now and again.
There is of course a chance that the chemical make up of the brass is different, but it would seem that this difference would have to be pretty big to cause what we are seeing in terms of neck ID – after all we are using cases which all belong to the same lot. I am guessing that annealing problem at the factory is more likely?
Yes I did measure the pressure ring on the bullet, several times. These are 106 grain Mattix VLS's
With a 2433 pressure ring. Bullets have also been sorted by bearing surface to .001 . Meplat trimmed and pointed in a Hoover die with I believe # 12 punch. I have played with Templaq and come up with time in the flame turning. I now turn the light out and set the time and flame to the point just "before"the neck starts to turn orange. I believe this is correct.JVON
With a 2433 pressure ring. Bullets have also been sorted by bearing surface to .001 . Meplat trimmed and pointed in a Hoover die with I believe # 12 punch. I have played with Templaq and come up with time in the flame turning. I now turn the light out and set the time and flame to the point just "before"the neck starts to turn orange. I believe this is correct.JVON
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
I think that it is entirely possible that you are over annealing your cases. One of the most knowledgeable persons on this is Ken Light. Here is a little light reading on the subject. http://www.kenlightmfg.com/cartridgecaseannealer.htm Toward the bottom of the page you will see how he determines whether cases have been over annealed.
I used to seat my .20 cal bullets in wilson dies by hand. Even though I did "everything right" with the brass prep (turning, cleaning, annealing, blah blah blah, no generational mixing no bullet sorting though, used Bergers)…) I could always tell that some seated easy, some tough. Always bugged me.
I've often wondered if it might have to do with a phenom. caused by just a microscopic bullet tilt or a tiny instance of sudden heat, or whatever that caused the coefficient of friction to go…weir dish.
Now I just don't pay attentnion
, lol!
I've often wondered if it might have to do with a phenom. caused by just a microscopic bullet tilt or a tiny instance of sudden heat, or whatever that caused the coefficient of friction to go…weir dish.
Now I just don't pay attentnion
, lol!
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